Lean Into the Awkwardness: An Interview with Rebecca

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. So, welcome back, everybody. I'm here today with a super, super, super special guest. I'm here with Al Hoberman. Al is a creative arts therapist, the editor of my podcast, and a friend. And Al is going to be turning the tables around a little bit today and actually interviewing me. Hi, Al.

Al Hoberman:

Hey, Rebecca. Thanks for having me.

Rebecca Wong:

I'm so excited you're here.

Al Hoberman:

This is so exciting.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, I know.

Al Hoberman:

Ah, oh, my gosh.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. So, you've been my behind the scenes person for a while on both podcasts, on the Connectfulness Practice and on the Why Does My Partner. And we were thinking, let's turn things around a little bit today.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, I'm excited. And I loved your suggestion of having a back and forth. I remember what you said, "Let's find some threads to pull on." I didn't come with any super formal interview questions for you and I know you didn't for me, but it will be exciting to explore these brains.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. I'm super excited to do that.

Rebecca Wong:

Okay. All right. So, we didn't really come with any questions. We were just showing up here for a conversation.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. Well, and I think it's especially exciting. Rebecca, you spend all of this time interviewing other people for this podcast and asking-

Rebecca Wong:

I do.

Al Hoberman:

Getting other people's perspective. So, I don't know. I think it will be great for me, but also for our listeners to hear a little about you and your work.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, I love this idea so much. When we first started talking about it, I was like, "Oh, maybe I'll do a solo show. Oh, wait, hold on. I don't really just talking to myself. I feel like I get lost in these trains and I need someone to help me make this conversation coherent." And Al, I'm so excited to dive into this with you, so yay.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, no, great. Yeah. What if you did introduce yourself? Like you know? Yeah, like what are the-

Rebecca Wong:

Like what is this work that I do?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. What is this work that you do? How are you coming into it?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. So I think, really, all of my work is grounded in relationships. With this, the context being a really important part, because I think one of the problems that we struggle with today is that our relationships are often so decontextualized. We think, "If I'm in a relationship with this person, as an adult, why, it should be a certain way." But we forget that we have all learned how to be in relationships through being in relationships with many other people before.

Rebecca Wong:

And so, what I find, especially when I work with partners, what I really find is that the relationships that we've all experienced growing up are the ones that set a template for how we do relationships as adults. And we play out the issues that we haven't really resolved in our adult relationships. We're still looking for resolution, but now we're looking for it with our partners instead of our caregivers. And here's the craziest part. You ready for this?

Al Hoberman:

Okay.

Rebecca Wong:

It's a little hard to swallow. The stuff that often I find we play out the most is the stuff that we have absolutely no context for. The stuff we really don't understand. The stuff that might be generational.

Al Hoberman:

You were right when you say it's hard to swallow. It's like it's not a comfortable thing to think about that we're, like when I think about that, that I might be playing something out, it's like I feel out of control. I feel like, "How do I even get out of this cycle?" There's almost an initial just like gut feeling of despair when I hear you say that, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yeah. And there's good news. There's really good news.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Because here's the thing, your nervous system is actually the part that's in control. But it's like there's the conscious part and there's the unconscious part. And so, my feeling is that what we're called to do in these moments, when we feel this out of control, especially in our relationships, is actually like "get to know ourselves." Right?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

That's the most primitive, most primal relationship there is. If we can turn around and do the U turn and get to know ourselves, we can actually gain a lot of control over how our relationships go.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's true, even the way you say it. It's like there's the smile on your face that is sort of like opening up. "I'm excited to learn more about myself. This is an opportunity for growth. I'm going to get something out of this," which, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. "I'm going to benefit from doing this work." When I turn around, and I do, there's grief in there. It's hard. It's not all rainbows and butterflies. But when I turn around and I do the work of looking inwards, I get to experience the rewards of that. I get to feel known by me.

Al Hoberman:

Right. And that's so huge, because I'm sure this must be for you, too. I know, for me, a lot of the people that I work with, come in with a lot of fear, come in with a lot of discomfort. On the one hand, I do want to work on this thing, this thing that doesn't feel good in my life. But on the other hand, I've been kind of afraid of what I'm going to find out or I don't know how this is going to go or maybe I won't like what I find. And like, I don't know. What do you-

Rebecca Wong:

Can I pause us right there?

Al Hoberman:

Okay.

Rebecca Wong:

Well, because the first thing I'm feeling into when I hear you sharing this kind of template, this constellation of how people come in?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

The first part that I'm kind of noticing in my body is like, "Oh, gosh, that's so resonant." How many of us haven't had that experience? How many of us haven't been afraid in that way? And then I look at it from the perspective of, "Why?" Not why as like a judgment, but why, because I actually don't really love the question why. I think it sets us up to be defensive.

Rebecca Wong:

But the why in terms of, "How did we get here?" How did we get to this place where when I think about knowing myself, I get so scared. And here's what I think many of us will find in the answer. If we actually go down that tunnel of exploring it. I think what many people will find is nobody has ever really taken the time to get to know me, which implicitly must mean that maybe I'm not worth knowing. What does that feel when it lands?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. I think about what happens when we're alone, when we feel alone. And it's like for me, there's this image of kind of like a vast emptiness where scary things can come out of the shadows or maybe are lurking in the dark, and I don't. When I'm alone in a space, I don't have anything to kind of to bounce off on.

Rebecca Wong:

To push back on.

Al Hoberman:

To push back on.

Rebecca Wong:

I'm watching your hands, yeah.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah. You know me, I sometimes do movement instead of words, so you're going to help me out. But yeah, we know our inner world by experiencing in a relationship to someone else, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yes.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. If I haven't been known, if I haven't had that experience, like you said, of having someone take the time, then it's like, "I have no shape. I have no form or function in my internal world."

Rebecca Wong:

And you know where that takes me? And this might be a little bit esoteric, a little bit, whatever, but it takes me into the spiritual. Because when I think about that unknown, the great unknown, all the things that I can't really ever know. And I think about, oh, there's this... hold on. I'll just remember it. Okay.

Rebecca Wong:

There's this great quote from Dr. Clarissa Pinkola Estés and towards the end of women who run with the wolves, she's actually talking about aloneness. And one of the things she says is that the etymology of the word alone is actually used to mean all one. So, when we're talking about loneliness versus aloneness, we're actually talking about kind of different things. And that there's something really sacred and spiritual about getting to the place where we could be alone with ourselves.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

That's actually like I can be in the depth of who I am, of not knowing and I can just be with that.

Al Hoberman:

Right. That brings me to one of the things I was hoping to pick your brain about, which is this idea of being alone or being in relationship with another person. I have so many, you know? I don't do couples work like you do. But I work with, all of my clients are in relationships of one kind or another, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Right.

Al Hoberman:

Romantic and every other kind of relationship. But especially with the romantic ones, it's such a common question. Am I ready to be in a relationship? How can I do this healing work and I struggle with my partner or is that making it too hard? Yeah, if "I'm not fixed yet," Then, "How can I do this?"

Rebecca Wong:

Isn't that such a human question?

Al Hoberman:

It so is. Yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca Wong:

And yet, we do it. We look around and we do it. And I think my answer is actually crazy simple. You ready for it?

Al Hoberman:

Yes.

Rebecca Wong:

We lean into the awkwardness. Right?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Awkwardness, I think, is a gateway towards authenticity. Awkwardness helps us let go of the need to be perfect. Awkwardness helps us let go of the agenda that "I need to be just right before I get into relationship." So, I lean into the awkwardness. I don't know. Maybe I'm weird, but well, I know I am. And that awkwardness invites all of the growth and all of the healing, because it only comes when we actually show up. We have to show up for the relationship awkwardly, not knowing how to do it right and bump up against each other to learn where we are.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah. So maybe, can you illustrate that for us? Give us maybe a picture of, I don't know, some ways to even imagine doing that.

Rebecca Wong:

Oh, gosh, yeah, sure. I'm looking just for the right story. Well, have you ever been in a relationship with anybody? It could be a parent, a sibling, a friend, a colleague, a lover, like anybody?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

And something just doesn't feel right. Yeah. And so, when you're in that kind of space and something just doesn't feel right, what's your go-to? What do you do? And this is for everybody listening? What is it that you do? Do you kind of smile and bear it and just go along with it. Do you walk on eggshells? Do you try to accommodate? Do you speak up and say, "That doesn't feel so good to me? Can we try it differently?"

Al Hoberman:

You sit down and withdraw? Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. So, there's so many. Do you get angry? Do you try to control the situation? What is it that you do? How do you show up? And are there threads? Are different relationships different? Would you be different with a lover than you are with a colleague?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Or are there threads that are the same throughout? Because this is how we learn about ourselves. Here's something that I've learned about myself recently. I'm in the three-year Somatic Experiencing Training Program. I just finished my second year. And one of the big learnings I've had is how much when I smile, I'm actually doing a lot of social bracing. There's something, it's like there's this implicit message that I've grown up with that lives inside of my system that says it's my job somehow to not upset other people. And to soften things for them. And so, there's often a little smile on my face, especially if I'm talking about myself.

Al Hoberman:

Right. Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. It's happening a little right now. You could probably see it.

Al Hoberman:

Right, I do. I do and I'm noticing a smile on my face, too. And checking in with how much of that is going on for me, too and thinking about how some of those qualities are also what makes you such a great therapist. That is you have this amazing ability to make people feel comfortable or help people feel comfortable.

Rebecca Wong:

And I think it's great when it's conscious.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Rebecca Wong:

And there are times where a lot of it kind of is like I was in the SE training, and I was doing a practice session with some other learners and I was in the role. We go into these roles where someone is a practitioner, and someone is an experiencer. And I was in an experiencer role and I was realizing like, "Oh, I have." It's like my experience gets to be kind of the thing that comes up here. And I'm having a moment where I'm actually doing a lot more bracing. I'm really aware of all the bracing that I'm doing. Because I know how hard this topic is and what I might add to the content that I might be bringing up. I don't want to overwhelm the other people in the room. And so, I'm bracing to avoid overwhelming them.

Rebecca Wong:

As a therapist, I'm not using my content. And so, there's something different about the quality of that, but you're right. There's something about this, and I think it shows up in so many different ways. In my relationship, my dear husband has this thing he does where he sort of bites his lip. And I grew up in a home where if somebody bit their lip, a certain parent of mine, it meant, "Something bad was about to happen and I should brace because..." And when I would watch my husband then biting his lip, I made it all about me and there was then some, there was a new agenda, I have to fix something. Until this one day, and folks probably have heard me share the story. But until this one day, when I turned around, I looked at him and he was doing a Sudoku puzzle and that's why he was biting his lip.

Al Hoberman:

I've heard that story. Yep.

Rebecca Wong:

It is biting his lip had actually nothing to do with me. But I was interpreting it because of my old stories as having something to do with me. And in the past, we'd get into a tumble over it. But really, they were two different stories.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. And I'll bet that you were both feeling really attacked in that moment.

Rebecca Wong:

In the old story, right?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

In the old versions, once I've looked over and I was like, "Oh, he's doing a crossword puzzle. It's Sudoku." I was like, "Oh, okay, wait. Hold on, Rebecca. You take care of you. And you can tell him the story at a later time when it's kind of funny. But really, there's two different things happening here. He's engrossed in a puzzle and you're in an old reactive moment. And you, Rebecca, can take care of that reaction and bring it to him differently." Yeah.

Al Hoberman:

I think it's a testament to the work you've done noticing those patterns that you were able to realize what was going on in the moment, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, well, that is the work. All of us. And not just for therapists who do this work every day, but for all of us in relationship. This is the work. It's getting to know what are those patterns and how are they showing up and influencing my current day relationships? What's the old stuff that, as Jules talks about, as Jules Shore talks about. There's this implicit seed. There's these historic history-colored glasses that we wear all the time. Every moment of every day is colored by that. And so all of those old knowings, everything that has shaped us. And here's the craziest part about it. We encode 11 million.

Al Hoberman:

Here, Rebecca.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yep.

Al Hoberman:

You moved away from the mic when you said here's the craziest part about it.

Rebecca Wong:

Okay.

Al Hoberman:

You want to take that one again?

Rebecca Wong:

I'll take that again. Okay. All right. So, implicit memories live on in a felt sense inside of us all the time. The craziest part is that we encode, get, wait and hear these numbers.

Al Hoberman:

All right.

Rebecca Wong:

We encode 11 million bits of sensory information per second, perceptually. That's implicit knowledge. 11 million bits of information, sensory information per second. But at the same time that we're doing that, we're encoding six to 50 bits of information consciously. Whoa.

Al Hoberman:

Whoa.

Rebecca Wong:

Whoa. That implicit sea is big. It is so big.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. And it's like I think, thank God for the perception filter, because I could never hope to take in that much consciously. I'm so glad actually that I have these parts of my brain that take care of it without me having to steer that ship.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. And this is why how we tune in to all of these embodied experiences that take up space inside of us is so key. And there are so many different ways to do it. We can do it somatically. We could do it musically or creatively. That's what your work is all about. Because there aren't often words for all of it.

Al Hoberman:

Yes. Yeah. Exactly.

Rebecca Wong:

It lives outside of that realm.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah. And there's, it's like one way of thinking about it noticing the patterns is retraining yourself to take in new things consciously, explicitly. And let some things fade into the implicit in a way. I don't actually have to take care of that right now. I don't because it's not about me, but I can take in this other information consciously. Whether it's sound or music or movement, or just hearing the words in a new way that I can take in and add to my body of knowing, of knowledge. It means I can, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Well, I'm thinking back to the Sudoku puzzle. And historically, I would have watched him bite his lip, and I would have started with something that sounded like, "What's the matter?" And he would have said something like, "What do you mean, what's the matter? Why does something have to be the matter?" And I'd say something like, "Well, you're biting your lip." And he'd say something like, "Well, why does that need to be about you?"

Rebecca Wong:

And we'd get into a tumble. Because I'd be looking for what's the thing that I can fix. I know something's the matter. And the particular time that I'm talking about, I remember really clearly. And I sat there and I remember putting my hand on my heart. And just having a soft soothing moment with myself. "Oh, Rebecca." And then he was sitting next to me on the couch and I leaned my body towards this, and he leaned his body towards me. And then there were all these little moments of nonverbal communication happening that were reinforcing for me, "This isn't about you."

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. I'm safe. I'm okay right now.

Rebecca Wong:

I'm safe. That's right. That's right. And that's the other piece is that, we know that we are constantly scanning the world. Scanning the world within us, scanning the world around us for signs of "Am I safe or am I not safe? Am I safe or am I not safe?" So, the biting of the lip for me was one of those "I'm not safe" moments. I need to do something. I'm going into fight/flight fix. I was going into fix. And in order to get ourselves out of those places, if we're scanning the world, we're scanning at a rate of four to five times per second to check in if I'm safe or not.

Rebecca Wong:

But to get us out of that place, we actually need to pause for 15 to 20 seconds, and go "Oh, oh, take a look at what's happening here. Hold on a minute. Wait. Let's look at this." So, when I put my hand on my heart, when I leaned my body towards his, those were the moments that helped reinforce we're actually okay. Take a look at all that information. There's a lot of sensory stuff to pick up on right now. It's saying we're okay.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. And even as I listened to your voice telling that story, it's like I'm tracking the change in your tone of voice.

Rebecca Wong:

That's right.

Al Hoberman:

I could tell it at how you just did this release of air and your voice just got warmer in this way and a little softer, that when we talk about nonverbal or creative ways of listening to yourself being in the world. It's like, "Oh, that's a musical kind of cue that you're that you're okay." Not just that you're okay, but that you're transmitting this. This tone of release, of softness, and then I feel it, too, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Right. And so, to think about that, the way that our voices sound, the prosody of our voices, has a lot to do with how we relate. And so, you heard that shift in my tone here?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

And so, if I were to turn to my husband after having gone through some of that somatic work, I probably would have turned to him with a really different tone than if I turned to him before with the example I gave of, "What's the matter?" So, the tone there would have changed and our ears pick that stuff up. Well, that's what we're talking about. The 11 million bits of information per second, it's all of that stuff. It's like what's the shift in the tone of my voice?

Al Hoberman:

I have such a funny story about that, actually, because it's about making it conscious. My wonderful partner is not from the US originally and she has this thing where she'll go, I'm probably not even going to get the tone exactly right. But when I'm talking to she'll do like, "Hmm?" One of these little mouth sounds that to me, every time I hear it, it's like, well, the old story was, "You're doubting me." It sounded like an incredulous noise or "Really, you think so?" And I would get all worked up by it and go into exactly the same tumble that you were describing.

Al Hoberman:

And then we moved here to her home country, Austria. And everyone around here does it. And it's just part of the language. It's a little, it's more like, "Mm-hmm." It's in English how we just say like, "Yeah, keep talking. I'm listening." And-

Rebecca Wong:

What a perspective shift.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah, so it's-

Rebecca Wong:

Oh, my gosh.

Al Hoberman:

Totally like your Sudoku story. That it was that moment where I couldn't not see it, so it's like that's, it's not where the work began, but it was like this step in the work where like, "Okay, now I know it, now I get to practice it." Because every time she does it, there's still this little twinge in me that it's the old thing that I've practiced all my life of being braced for being doubted or being not taken seriously. But there's also the part of me that's like, "Okay, take the 20 seconds because you have new information now." And yeah, and so-

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And like that's the beautiful part for me because I find this to be completely revolutionary. Okay, so you're in a thing with your partner, you're in a thing with your colleague, you're in a thing with your friend, whoever it is. What's it really going to cost you to pause for that 15 seconds and just check in? What's the cost there? And might there be something for you to benefit from doing that?

Rebecca Wong:

So, we talk about we go through this work. And I like to think of it kind of like circles in two different directions at the same time. So, in one spiral, we're kind of spiraling outward, so it's from the center of me towards the rest of the world towards all these relationships. And on the other one, I'm spiraling from the outside in. And when I'm spiraling from the outside in, I'm moving from all of these relationships back towards the center of me. And these are happening at the same time.

Rebecca Wong:

And so when I think of that, that's kind of what I think this work is. It's like I exist in the context of relationships and the context of the relationships I'm in exist inside of the context of my unconscious stories, stuff that I'm holding. And some of the stuff that I'm holding, I don't even understand. I'm just doing it because it's what the people who raised me did, because it's what the people who raised them did, because it's what the people who raised them did and none of it's really digested. And so, essentially, I'm replaying regurgitated stuff over many generations. So when I pause, I'm giving myself permission to notice it.

Al Hoberman:

Well, I'm noticing that I'm taking, not a devil's advocate position, but like a-

Rebecca Wong:

Go for it.

Al Hoberman:

I'm sort of purposefully asking some of the more painful questions today to hear your answers. So with that caveat, I'm like it sounds so heavy when you say it, too. There's that like, yeah, there's a real weight in realizing that you're carrying all this stuff from all of these people before you. And I think sometimes the fear of pausing for those 20 seconds is actually, I don't know if I want to feel that heaviness. Yeah. If I stop moving can I stand there and hold it?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. Oh, gosh. Grief avoidance is really real.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah, it is.

Rebecca Wong:

And I think it's what colors a lot of our experiences at least here in the West. It colors a lot of our experiences of how we walk culturally through life. We don't want to feel the hard things. We don't want to feel the heaviness. We don't want to be accountable or hold responsibility for what those who came before us did. And so, yeah. That's grief avoidance and it's real.

Al Hoberman:

And so, this is such a basic and such a big question, but so how do we come out of that? How do we-

Rebecca Wong:

Gently. Maybe we could just start by noticing that that's grief avoidance. Just that. Can we just take off that bite-sized piece. I don't need you to take everything. Can we just notice that there are times where the world just feels heavy? Can we notice that there are times when the world is heavy? Can we notice that there are times where our ancestors may have perpetrated something or been oppressed in some ways, and neither one feels good?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. And that actually, we probably have histories of both...

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. All of us.

Al Hoberman:

... in our families, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Right.

Al Hoberman:

That the more we dig, the less clear it gets. That there's a lot of pieces to hold.

Rebecca Wong:

The more coherent the story gets, the more complicated it tends to get.

Al Hoberman:

And I think maybe the question I was struggling to formulate before is not just how do we come out of that grief. But how do we do it in relationship? Yeah, maybe you can help me come up with this question. It's about how do we, right? Because before I asked about like, "Am I ready for a relationship? Do I have to be fixed before I could be in a relationship?" So, I want to get at it like how we use relationships to come out of shame, to experience.

Rebecca Wong:

And I think the answer is we use them awkwardly. And then I think we need to talk about shame.

Al Hoberman:

tly, that's what I [crosstalk: 00:33:25

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And so, when I think about shame, I lean into Terry Real's model here, but there are many that came before Terry. Just like there are many that came before all of us, we all have kind of ancestors. And so, one of Terry's ancestors is Pia Melody and Pia Melody had ancestors and there's lineages even to this work. So, I'm just kind of holding all of this.

Rebecca Wong:

But the piece here is that shame is a version of "I'm not good enough," as opposed to, "I did something that wasn't so great." It's, there's something the matter with me. And so, when we're in that place, we're in this place of being disempowered. We're in this place of kind of like contempt being turned in toward disgust. Being turned inward towards ourself. And when we go into the depth of that and we're really working with that shame, what we might experience is actually, "Oh, you know what? There's an edge in there." Where if I get really, if I get into that shame, if I get into that place, I might actually want to launch it outward, because it's more comfortable to explode out than to implode in.

Rebecca Wong:

And so, there's the context for how shame going one down being disempowered. And grandiosity or false empowerment are going one up in this kind of cycle of power. Right? False empowerment, disempowerment, one up, one down, power over, power under is all kind of really the same thing. And we live in a very power over world. The way out, and there is a way out, is through power with, shared power with. It's a perspective shift. It's a huge perspective shift.

Rebecca Wong:

And I don't know enough about the politics and about the world events that are happening right now, but I did just the other night catch a story that I don't think is getting enough media attention. And it's kind of brilliant. So, we know that there's a war going on between Russia and the Ukraine. Well, apparently, Russian soldiers are being offered by Ukraine what amounts to about $40,000 US dollars if they walk away essentially from the Russian Army. And all they have to do when they surrender themselves to say the word, "Million."

Rebecca Wong:

That's important, because it's actually a story of shared power with. "We don't want to take power over you. We don't want to end your life. We don't really, do you even know why you're here fighting us? Is it important to you that you do? Come. Step away. We'll try to help you reestablish yourself." Shared power with, as opposed to power over or power under.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. Reminds me of the conversation about calling in instead of calling out. That's come up again and again in recent years.

Rebecca Wong:

Very much. Yeah. "Hey, I want to help you out." And this is what we teach relationally. When I teach my couples how to have difficult conversations, what I'm teaching them how to do is to come at that conversation, not from a place of "I need to be right," right? Not from a place of "I need to control you, or you need to experience how bad this was for me or I'm going to put." Not from those kinds of places that are what we call losing strategies, but from a place of "How can I help you to help me?"

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. What can I do?

Rebecca Wong:

"There's something I need here. What can I do to help you to help me? Because you might not even understand what it is I need. So, how can I help you to help me?" And that's why I think what I'm seeing happening with Ukraine making this offer towards Russian soldiers feels so much akin to this relational work. "How can I help you to help me?"

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, it's not coercion.

Rebecca Wong:

No.

Al Hoberman:

It's not saying, "Come over to our site, or we'll kill."

Rebecca Wong:

Nope.

Al Hoberman:

Or "You have to do this." It's, "We'll offer you."

Rebecca Wong:

How can I help you to help me?

Al Hoberman:

Yes. How can I help you to help me? Yeah. We can offer this. Would you take it? Are you willing to take it? Which brings up the word boundaries for me. And right? And yeah, I see, yeah, your reaction. You get it right away, but maybe to spell it out for the listeners, it's like, right? We often think of boundaries as telling people what they can or can't do to me. And that's actually controlling, that's coercive.

Rebecca Wong:

That is we don't actually have the ability to tell us.

Al Hoberman:

We can't.

Rebecca Wong:

I can't say to you, "Al, don't say that thing to me." Because you may say it or not say it. And I can't say that to you, but what I can say is if you say that to me again, I'm going to end this conversation. I can talk about what I'm going to do on my side of the street. "So, if you leave that army, I will give you this money. I will offer you shelter."

Al Hoberman:

Exactly.

Rebecca Wong:

I can talk about what I can do.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. And then you make your decision, because you're an independent person.

Rebecca Wong:

That's right.

Al Hoberman:

And I can tell you what I really want you to do. I can tell you, yeah, what will help me the most? And but ultimately, it is your decision, because I can't control you.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. It reminds me of that like yesterday, the mask mandate dropped in my kids' schools, just yesterday. And so last week or Sunday or something, we have had a family meeting. We had a conversation around the dinner table. And it was like, "Okay, so here's what things are. And what are you going to do. We're here to help you figure this out." But my kids are preteens and teens. "It's your job to figure it out now."

Rebecca Wong:

And so, I think this is really central, that when we're raising young humans to become adults that our work is to help them learn who they are. Not to impose who we are on them. And their job as they get older as they become adults is to be true to themselves. Not to please their ancestors.

Al Hoberman:

Yes. Which is so, what I go to is actually is to think about you, Rebecca, as the parent or/and my parents and every parent. Because, of course, parents have hopes for their kids.

Rebecca Wong:

Of course.

Al Hoberman:

Right, right? We all, anyone who has a child, anyone who has any kind of relationship has a picture of how it's going to be. And that's human, of course we do it and of course, we want to be pleased by our kids or by our other relationships. And it's so hard to let go of that.

Rebecca Wong:

It is, but it's also exciting to go. Just last night, I said to my youngest, "Okay, it's time to get ready for bed." And their reply to me was, "No." My husband and I looked at each other and he's like, "Did he just say no to you?" And I was like, "Uh-huh (affirmative)." And I just sat there just kind of smirking and taking that in. And the reason I was celebrating it, because that's what I was doing, I was celebrating their no was because this is a human who is really wanting to please people in the world.

Rebecca Wong:

And here with me, they were embodying that agency and taking root in that space and just saying like, "No, I don't like to go to bed now. No." And there was room for flexibility. I didn't have to impose myself over them in that moment. There was time just to take in like, "Yes, sweetie, I hear that you don't want to go to bed right now. Okay, let's negotiate this." Right?

Al Hoberman:

Right. Her no is her saying her boundaries. Right? And then it's not the end of the conversation.

Rebecca Wong:

No. It's the beginning. It's the beginning. When I-

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I was going to say like we, just we, us in particular could probably have another two-hour conversation about then how that conversation could go. Right?

Rebecca Wong:

Totally.

Al Hoberman:

But I think actually that might be part of it, too is that when we hear no, we think of it as the other kind of boundary, the wall, the controlling. And it's, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

But what if the now is actually the portal that allows us to say yes to the things that matter. What if no, is actually like, "Well, I know what brings me pleasure and that's not it." Because if I can't voice that no then what other nos can't I voice? It is so important that we all can say no. Because when we don't say no, and this comes from Pia's work. When we can't say no or when we don't say no, especially in the places where we would want to say no, we end up carrying resentment. And that isn't conducive to really secure healthy relationships.

Rebecca Wong:

Because if I'm walking around with that resentment in me from the times I didn't say no to you then I'm not actually, A, I'm not with you in the moment because I'm with you in all those past moments I didn't get to say no. And the resentment that I'm carrying is heavier on my back. You want to talk about heaviness. There are ways that we continue to put more heaviness on ourselves and there are ways where we start to liberate ourselves from that heaviness. Right?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. It's not all from our ancestors. We also contribute to our own baggage.

Rebecca Wong:

That's the thing. So, when we start to see like, "These are the old historical patterns," then I can be aware of how I am either contributing to them now, how am I replaying them now or how am I liberating myself from them now. What parts are serving me, cool, keep them coming. And what parts are actually inhibiting my relationships? Oh, maybe I don't want to keep doing those things. Just because my mother said yes all the time, it doesn't mean that I have to.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. I love that you said parts. I've been lately so influenced by the work of Richard Schwartz in Internal Family Systems, where we talk about our parts, our parts are all trying to help.

Rebecca Wong:

They are. They really, really are.

Al Hoberman:

They love us and they want-

Rebecca Wong:

So much.

Al Hoberman:

They want to support the system. And they've learned to do it one way because my mother did it this way or because I had to do that, too, with my mother.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. So many of those parts-

Al Hoberman:

When I'm with my mother.

Rebecca Wong:

So many of those parts are adaptations that formed to increase our safety, to increase our well-being, to increase our justice or to decrease our suffering.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. And that same part can learn to do it differently. That part has some skills and they're using them in one way that's not so helpful right now. But those same skills, whether it's helping people feel comfortable or yeah, and anything. I'm not coming up with other ideas right now, but-

Rebecca Wong:

I think what you're trying to say there, though, Al, is that those parts, we can come into different relationship with them. When we're kind of functioning from those adaptations, often what's happening is we're in like a whoosh. We're in a kind of you and me consciousness, you versus me consciousness. If you do this, then the cost to me is or if I need to, so that you don't. And that's culturally a lot of what we live inside of. And the shift is if I can shift into what will serve us both into like an us or we consciousness, it really changes the story. There is no win lose. It's just we're really looking for a win-win here.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. And that happens on all of these different levels. It happens with my person in life, but it also happens within me, like going back to shame and a couple of other things, I guess. So many of my people also come saying, "I just want to get rid of this part of me, or I don't like this about myself." Right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Al Hoberman:

Which, yeah, comes from such pain.

Rebecca Wong:

From such pain.

Al Hoberman:

And, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

The work I think is about learning how to embrace that part. Where did that part come from?

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. And maybe it's not, certainly new right now, but that doesn't mean it's because the part is bad. It's because it's adapted in a way that doesn't apply anymore. It's doing the job that that isn't helping.

Rebecca Wong:

Necessary right now. That's right. Yeah.

Al Hoberman:

But the part still has value and it still has skills, and it can learn to do something new.

Rebecca Wong:

Totally. Yeah. I love that. Yes. Yeah. I mean, you might be borrowing some of this, but I'm thinking of Richard Schwartz's book, No Bad Parts.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Rebecca Wong:

It really kind of brings this home that these parts have shown up in this way to help us adapt to the world. That our work is to kind of step into the wisest, best part of ourselves, which is the part that is going to just kind of welcome all of these parts home.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah. The self.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, the self. And I think that that's the hardest part of this work, because to really be in relationship doesn't just mean how do we show up in those Hollywood-esque type relationships with long walks at moonlight on the beach with our lovers. But it actually means that we have to be in relationship with all parts of ourselves. And that's the heaviness. That's the part that I think so many of us try to avoid.

Al Hoberman:

Right, right. Because you have to embrace these parts in order to help them transform.

Rebecca Wong:

That's right.

Al Hoberman:

You can't transform them and then start to love them. It has to be the other way around.

Rebecca Wong:

And there's not just parts that have formed in adaptation, there's also parts that we have inherited. So, that could be that professor that I had in grad school or my fourth grade teacher, or my grandparent, or the ancestors I never knew. That there are some inherited parts inside of us, too. And some of them, let's not just put this all in the heavy category. Some of them teach us so much about resilience and survival. And the truth is that everybody that's here and all the generations that have come before us that have survived, those adaptations have served them well.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah. We're here because they all survived.

Rebecca Wong:

Yes.

Al Hoberman:

Right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yeah.

Al Hoberman:

So, we have to have something going for us.

Rebecca Wong:

Totally. Right. And we build on that resilience.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the more you can enjoy those things about yourself, the more room there is to embrace more parts of you. To bring them into the fold like you were saying. Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And then as I can start to embrace more of those parts within myself then when similar parts show up in you, or in my partner or in, I'm less likely to push back against them. Because oftentimes what's happening in relationship is I'm getting reactive to something inside of whomever else I'm in relationship with that is reminding me of a part of me that I can't embrace.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah. This is just popping into mind. I don't know if, I don't know. It's just a funny story. That part is sometimes talked about as the shadow, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Al Hoberman:

That's like Jung and some of those other guys.

Rebecca Wong:

Jung, yeah.

Al Hoberman:

And so, I was in training with Dr. Diane Austin, who's a music psychotherapist in New York. And she had us do a project, which, and it was all music therapists, so we all came in with some music training, but you totally don't have to have that. You don't have to play the music. Later, I'm going to describe. You just, you could listen. The same applies to anyone. And she said, "Come in next week with a song that, like with your shadow song to play for the group. That is totally not you in music. Not just music that you hate, but like, "Ooh, I'm not that person."

Rebecca Wong:

Ooh.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah. And there's this sort of revulsion. And it was so much fun that next week to come in and everyone was, you know? And to perform and sing these songs for other people. And I think, when you learn how to play a piece of music, I don't know. It's just, it's like getting to know someone really well. It's you end up finding the like.

Al Hoberman:

o music. You could [crosstalk: 00:52:29

Rebecca Wong:

I'm so curious. Once you go there, what's the flavor? What's the feeling? What shifts inside of you once you go there, once you learn? I'm imagining some kind of like liberatory kind of experience, but I'm curious what you experienced?

Al Hoberman:

Well, I'll share. The song I chose was Meghan Trainor's All About That Bass, which, yeah. And actually, what it was, was playful. It was so playful. I mean, and the song, it's actually, I mean, I think the message in that song was wonderful. The shadow for me wasn't in her explicit message, but in sort of the kind of in her playfulness in a certain kind of playfulness.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the hard part.

Al Hoberman:

That made me a little bit hard to describe.

Rebecca Wong:

It was the hard part for you to embrace at that time. But then having embodied it, there was something different about it.

Al Hoberman:

all out there like [crosstalk: 00:53:32

Rebecca Wong:

It's so fun.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. So, I got to just play with that. And it's like it's not too heavy, because it's not really all about me. It's in a song. It's someone else's song. But also, I get to have this experience of like, "Hey, you know what? It's not so bad to just accept yourself in this assertive and playful way. And there's something to about it." So, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, I'm sitting here right now hearing you talk about this, Al, thinking, you know that heaviness that you were talking about before that you were asking me about? This is such a beautiful example that you're offering of how what we perceived to be so heavy isn't always really heavy.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, exactly.

Rebecca Wong:

Sometimes when we can give ourselves permission to kind of sink into it or explore it, the heaviness is actually the unknown. The heaviness is actually like, "I don't know how this is going to go. I don't know that I'm going to be okay." But when we can actually be with the process, it's often not so heavy and very enlightening.

Al Hoberman:

Right, right. And isn't that what therapy is about, so we-

Rebecca Wong:

What growth is about, like relationships in general. When I think about my marriage to my husband, we've been married now for about 16 years together, so probably 20. I mean, I broke up with him a few times in there. He stuck around.

Al Hoberman:

Rupture and repair.

Rebecca Wong:

Tons, but really it wasn't so much rupture and repair, I'll just, that little aside. I think it was more I wasn't really ready for a relationship that could feel okay. And so, I kept getting scared of what felt okay. But the truth is that the longer we're in a relationship, the more we go through evolution. So, the person I married to now is really different than the person I met and I'm really different than the person that he met. We are not the same people now.

Rebecca Wong:

We're not in the same relationship now that we were 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. We're in a different relationship. Still the same person, but a different relationship. And you can argue, are we even still the same people. We have grown and changed, and we will continue to grow and change. And that's what relationships are about.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, yeah. And when you talk about that, finding out that something is okay and I guess, I said therapy. But it's right in any, why does it happen in therapy, because that's a safe relationship, just like a place of your marriage or your romantic relationship can get to. It's that like, "Okay, I can take a little tiny risk here. I can, for 20 seconds, find out if this is okay." And then take it in and say, "Oh, for 20 seconds, it was fine. That's fine. Maybe I'll try it again. Is it still going to be okay, again?"

Rebecca Wong:

Right. And that little just kind of orienting, too, like "Is it okay? Is it okay? Is it okay?" That's how we're actually retraining our nervous system. So, that over and over again, we need to take in the information like, "Oh, that was okay." And so, that's why my one big piece of advice for everybody that's listening is be awkward. That's where we come back to. It's okay to take that 15 to 20 seconds. It might feel awkward, but that's-

Al Hoberman:

Right. Yeah. And it's actually not that long.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yeah, it's really not. And it feels really long when you're in it. But it's not.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. Sounds a good place for us to wrap up for today, Rebecca?

Rebecca Wong:

I think so. Thank you so much, Al. This was such a delicious conversation. I hope to do this again.

Al Hoberman:

Oh, I would love to. Thank you for asking me. It was really fun.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yeah. I wonder if maybe we should just put out an invitation to our listeners that if they've enjoyed this conversation, and they have more questions that maybe they could write in with those questions. And you can bring them into a future interview with me. We can do this on the regular.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah, that sounds amazing. Kind of like a-

Rebecca Wong:

Cool. Yeah.

Al Hoberman:

Let's do it.

Rebecca Wong:

Okay.

Al Hoberman:

Okay.

Rebecca Wong:

Sweet.

Al Hoberman:

All right.

Rebecca Wong:

All right. Take care everyone. Be awkward.

Al Hoberman:

Yeah. Bye-bye.