Taking Responsibility for Your Feelings with Shane Birkel

Rebecca Wong:

Welcome back. I'm here today with my friend and colleague, Shane Birkel. Shane is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and a certified relational life therapist. That's actually how we met. Based in New Hampshire. And he makes a lot of educational videos about relationships that you can find on TikTok. And he also has a wonderful podcast about the practice of couples therapy. Shane, welcome. So glad you joined me here today.

Shane Birkel:

Hi, Rebecca. Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. I'm really glad you're here too. You and I learn a lot in the same circles.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Over the years, we have kind of found ourself learning together quite a bit. And it's one of the things I really appreciate about knowing you, and just your drive, your quest for learning and how often the two of us find ourself in those circles.

Shane Birkel:

I know. It's provided us a lot of opportunities to really get to know each other. And I really value our friendship. And I feel like it probably speaks to the similarities about us that we always find ourselves at the same trainings together.

Rebecca Wong:

We geek out in similar ways.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. Totally.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yeah. So, I'm thinking about our conversation here today. And I would love to really talk about the normal developmental, like relational... the normal relational developmental process, right?

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

And help folks to understand, like, what does a healthy relationship actually look like? How could I help myself get there? If I'm not already there, what do I need to know about that?

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. That's great. And I feel like this is such an essential question that people come in and ask. And I feel like it's so hard to answer as well. Well, and I feel like it's also personal for different people, but with that being said, I think there are some really core parts of this that we can speak to, that we can sort of set the framework, set a foundation so that no matter what situation people are in, no matter how different it is, how diverse it is, and everybody has different needs and wants and things that they're looking for, I think we can say a few things that tend to be essentially true about what it means to be human and what it means to be in a relationship and what it means to feel healthy in your life.

Rebecca Wong:

As I hear you say that, I'm sitting here thinking, I held an intensive with a couple just recently. And when we really boiled down so much of the work that we did over the course of, like, 14 hours, the need to know that I matter was the central umph of what they were both struggling with. And I hear that over and over and over again with so many of the people I work with. And I'm wondering if that's true for you. I'm guessing that it is.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. Absolutely. And sometimes I use the phrase, valuing ourselves or feeling valued. And the thing about that... so, as human beings, we're wired for connection with other human beings. And we grow up in our families as children, yearning for connection with our family members and other people around us. And part of that is the need of children to be valued by their parents. So, in a healthy family, there's some part of that that will be happening, hopefully. And what happens a lot of times, even with well-intentioned parents not meaning to do anything wrong but not having the skills themselves, what happens oftentimes is a child will grow up in that family and...

Shane Birkel:

Let me give a specific example of how this might happen. Let's say the parents just really aren't good at talking about emotions. And every time the child comes to them and has a feeling of sadness or fear or hurt, they'll want to talk about it. And if the parents don't have the skills to talk about emotions, they might say something like, "Oh, it's no big deal. Don't worry about it. Just forget about it. You'll be fine." And what the child quickly learns, unconsciously maybe, is that it's not okay to talk about emotions, it's not okay to bring emotions up in the conversation. And children's brains often take it to another level of feeling like, "What is wrong with me for having these emotions in the first place?" which is invaluing... or devaluing themselves, or they're going to feel like, "I need to perform in a certain way in this family and in this world in order to- "

Rebecca Wong:

In order to.

Shane Birkel:

"... in order to get the love I deserve, in order to feel like I'm enough, in order to have people care about me."

Rebecca Wong:

Right. So, now, we're introducing this performative piece, right?

Shane Birkel:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rebecca Wong:

Like, "There's ways I have to contort myself or things I have to achieve in order for my value to be noticed."

Shane Birkel:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Absolutely. And so, when that child grows up and is in a relationship with someone, oftentimes there's this thing that happens, which is that, "Look, I know how I'm supposed to perform. And if I perform in that way, my partner should give me the love and affection that I always wanted, that I maybe missed out in my own family or to some extent missed out on."

Shane Birkel:

And there's a lot of feeling of overwhelming confusion when people find out that their partner doesn't see the world exactly the same way or they don't respond the way they expect or they have different needs and wants or it becomes very overwhelming and confusing for people.

Shane Birkel:

And, again, so much of it is unconscious, I believe. So, much of it... what happens is you just start interacting with your partner and you feel like they're invalidating your experience or you feel like they're not being very understanding or you feel like, "Why doesn't my partner feel like I matter? Why doesn't my partner care about me?" And that's not necessarily what's true about the situation, but it's a place where our brains go really quickly.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. I was just writing into this the other night. And I think what I wrote was something like, "We need to make conscious the practice of kind of recontextualizing our relational patterns." There's something about... there's so much of the relational patterning, like how I do relationship, how you do relationship, how we do relationship together that is just... it's unconscious, right?

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

And maybe it's passed down through the generations.

Shane Birkel:

Totally.

Rebecca Wong:

It's a transgenerational transmission, right, of relationships.

Shane Birkel:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rebecca Wong:

And so, part of the healing process is, I think, becoming really conscious of, how do we do relationship. And so, we're giving back context to where we don't know why we do this or how we do it, but it's just how we do it.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. And I think it's so hard to do that because we have... maybe because of the way that we're socialized, we have a perspective that there's a right way and a wrong way. We believe that it's about objective reality. And we have a hard time valuing ourselves in the first place, as we talked about. And so, we go to this place of either shaming ourselves or shaming our partner for not doing it the right way.

Rebecca Wong:

Right.

Shane Birkel:

So, for example.

Rebecca Wong:

As if there is a right way.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah, yeah. As if there was one. And so, if one partner grows up in a family where everyone talks really loud and it's really chaotic and everyone's interrupting each other, and the other partner grows up in a really small family where there's no conflict and no one talks about anything, and these two people are in a relationship with each other, it's really easy to go to this place of, "What's wrong with you for yelling at me and talking so loud?" And the other person, "What's wrong with you for never saying what you want or what you need?" And to go to this place of basically shaming the other person and making them feel like there's something wrong with them because they're not showing up in the relationship in a way that they expect.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And so-

Shane Birkel:

So, you're saying-

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Shane Birkel:

What you were saying before, just to connect that, there's obviously, you and I know, because we work with couples so often, there's such a huge amount of potential for us to move couples into compassion and understanding for each other. And I think such a huge part of that process is making the unconscious conscious, as you were saying before, helping them see what's happening in that.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And as we grow our awareness around those patterns, as we start to make the unconscious conscious, make the implicit more explicit, I think there's a... well, I don't think. I know that there's a shift that happens, where in RLT, we talk about this, in relational life therapy, we talk about it as the shift from first to second consciousness because we're really making things conscious here. We're really showing up in a way where... well, how would you describe relational mindfulness and second consciousness? What's...

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. The second consciousness, as I understand it, is the practice of mindfulness. It's the practice of being present. So, the first consciousness is our sort of visceral response. It's our nervous system response to a situation.

Shane Birkel:

So, let's say that if I grew up in a family where I was taught from a very young age that the right thing to do is to say, "Thank you," after every little thing that somebody does. And I am just going through the day with my partner, and my partner isn't saying, "Thank you," at the times that I feel like are the times that people are supposed to say, "Thank you."

Shane Birkel:

So, my first conscious response might be the whoosh feeling, the visceral response that I have, "Why is my partner not thanking me for all these nice things that I'm doing for them today?" That's my first consciousness. It's based on what was modeled for me growing up and the beliefs that I have about the world or beliefs that I'm making up about the world, I would say, because from my partner's perspective, they may feel extremely grateful and connected and feel really happy about the things I'm doing for them and it might not even cross their mind that they would say thank you that often because they just never had that growing up and they didn't know that that was something that's important to me.

Shane Birkel:

And so, getting to the second consciousness is the ability for me to, well, be understanding about their reality. I was going to say too, I guess, I don't know if this is second consciousness, this is maybe a different thing, but I can also, while I'm acknowledging that my partner's reality is different, I guess the first step is moving into compassion and understanding for myself, first of all. It's not about shaming myself, because that's another step that people do like, "Now, what's wrong with me for having such high expectations for having my partner say thank you." And I could swirl down into this shame spiral of like, "Oh, I just can't be happy with anything." And so, it's the ability to have compassion for myself, to be mindful, "I'm enough and I matter. I make mistakes sometimes and that's okay."

Shane Birkel:

And then to bring that love and passion to my partner and understanding for what their experience is. And this requires what psychology calls differentiation. I have to realize that my experience is not the same as this other person's experience. We're not dealing with objective reality; we're dealing with my perspective, my feelings, my emotions, my experience, which is completely valid, and my partner's experience and emotions and feelings, which is completely valid, at the same time.

Rebecca Wong:

I love how you're describing this and that you're bringing differentiation into it. I find that when I'm working with people in this way, one of the tools I have that is really helpful is to do kind of like a little parts work, right?

Shane Birkel:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rebecca Wong:

... where I bring in a younger part of them who might be having that big whoosh reaction. And that way, there's even a little differentiation maybe between them now and them when they were younger. Like, how old are they feeling in this moment when they're having this big reaction, right?

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

And to work with that part and their today-old self so that they can even bring that compassion to themselves, they can bring that, "Oh, that's your experience of it? What's my partner's experience of it?" That that work can move in multiple directions with that younger part of themself kind of really in mind.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. Absolutely. And I can give you an example from my personal life. I think having kids brings this to the forefront a lot. And I had an experience several months ago where I watched as my nine-year-old son hit his sister. And I had this whoosh feeling come up. And my visceral response, I'm ashamed to admit it, healthy sense of shame, that I yelled at him. I said, "Stop hitting your sister," or something like that. It was very harsh. I was standing over him as a big, strong adult. I'm sure it was intimidating for him. And it's really important for me to differentiate for myself.

Shane Birkel:

So, on the one hand, I'm being a violator at that point. I am being emotionally abusive to my son, as I am standing over and intimidating him in that way. And so, on the one sense, it's sort of this sense of entitlement like, "Who do I really think I am that I have the right to be abusive to a nine-year-old?" So, there's that sense of entitlement that's part of that whoosh. And then it would be easy for me to go to a place of shame. Now, that could be healthy shame or that could be toxic shame. We could talk about the difference, but of, "Oh my gosh, I'm such a terrible person that I just yelled at my son."

Shane Birkel:

Now, let's say we keep it at a healthy level. What that motivates me to do is move into my functional adult self to feel bad about the way that I handled the situation. And in this case, within 30 seconds, I apologize to him. I was trying to repair. But to realize that, like you were saying, there's an opportunity here. Maybe I go in my room by myself after that, after I do the repair process, and have a conversation with that part of me that came out. That there's something, some younger part of myself that was coming out in that moment.

Rebecca Wong:

And I'm imagining that that conversation, you know, part of... when I think of the difference between healthy and toxic shame, as you mentioned, one of the differences that I think about is healthy shame kind of brings me to a, "Oh, I don't like how I just behaved. I want to do better," right?

Shane Birkel:

Exactly.

Rebecca Wong:

So, it's the behavior that I'm not liking. But when I'm in that more toxic place, I've become the bad person. So, now, I'm bad, as opposed to my behavior wasn't good, right?

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Is it the person, or is it the behavior?

Shane Birkel:

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Shame is "I'm essentially a bad person." The other thing about it is that, let's say you're working with a couple and one partner has had an affair, so that's a pretty big violation, and they're moving into shame about it. The toxic shame... if they start saying, "I'm a terrible person. What's wrong with me?" Chances are, sometimes what'll happen is their partner will start to move into compassion for them. So, it takes the focus off of the appropriate person. So, having an affair is being preoccupied with yourself and doing what you want and acting in an entitled way. And then moving into toxic shame in the conversation with your partner is another form of preoccupation with yourself.

Rebecca Wong:

I love how you just did that there because what we're doing is we're noticing the difference between when you're preoccupied with you and when you're focused on your relationship.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. So, healthy shame would be, "I feel terrible about what I did. And I might be moved to emotions because I have so much compassion and love for you, this person who I love and care about. And it moves me into accountability and connection with their experience. And I will still be able to be present and open with them, at the service of them."

Rebecca Wong:

And toxic shame keeps the focus on me.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Shane Birkel:

It forces the conversation to be at the service of me, once again.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. So, whether I'm behaving badly, it's focused on me, or if I'm in such a deep despair, the focus is still on me because now I'm sitting in that dark place.

Shane Birkel:

Yes. Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yeah. It's so funny how we learn how to do relationships, isn't it? That somehow, these are the skills that are passed down to us because the people who passed down the skills did the best that they could, and this is what they knew.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I think there should be more acknowledgement of that in our society. I think people grow up in the families they grow up in, and we learn from society. And there's very little acknowledgement of, well, what is it really that makes people feel healthy? Some of these essential ideas of compassion and understanding and love that we're all seeking as human beings, why is that important? I mean, just look at the political world. There's a huge amount of acceptance for people acting abusively towards each other. And I think there's very limited...

Rebecca Wong:

Accountability?

Shane Birkel:

Accountability, limited maturity, limited... people look at somebody who throws a temper tantrum and thinks, "Oh, that's just somebody who has a lot of power or a lot of control of the situation," without really seeing sometimes how much of a lack of maturity is coming into play at that moment.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And so, this is something I think that you and I both kind of think about a bunch. When I'm thinking about that maturity piece, I'm also thinking about the parts of me that really didn't have the nurturing that they needed or the guidance that they needed or the limit-setting that they needed to grow up. To really grow up. And so, when I'm in an adult relationship, if those parts of me, and there can be all different kinds of parts, but if there's some part of me that is acting out because there were never any limits set there or is manipulating as a form of trying to get some kind of nurturing because that's the only way it knows how to receive the love, those parts of me actually need me to show up, to be the adult, to help me through the process of maturation. That's really what so much of this work is about. It's about maturing.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. So, there's two things that you're saying that I think are so important. One thing I was thinking of was like how personal this is for each and every one of us. And this is why therapy can be so helpful because we can really dig in to understand the exact ways in which your particular family has influenced who you are as a person and move into compassion and understanding for the things that are going on in the way that you're behaving in the world in a very specific way.

Shane Birkel:

And if I grew up with a... I'm just making this up. If I grew up with a boundaryless mother and a walled-off father, I might be very different in the present than you, growing up with the exact same parents. And in therapy, we can really dig into that and try to understand why that is, we'll make some connections about what personally, why have you become who you are.

Shane Birkel:

And the other thing you were saying, which I think was really helpful is the understanding that so often, people are still... they're still waiting for their parents to show up in the way that they deserve, either consciously or unconsciously, or they're still trying to perform in a way to get their parents' approval and love. This happens even after their parents have died.

Rebecca Wong:

Even after their parents have died. And sometimes, they treat their partner that way, right?

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

They're looking for that from their partner or trying to seek their partner's approval.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. Exactly. Or they're trying to get it from their partner. Yeah. Totally.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. There's this other dynamic that I witness sometimes with my people, and I'd love to just check it out with you. Sometimes, when they're growing up, they witness a certain dynamic in their home, like, between their parents. Maybe there's some dishonesty or maybe there's a withholding of being able to go deep or just kind of to be able to grieve together or something along those lines. And then in their relationship as adults with their partner, they replay the historical dynamic, like, "I witnessed it growing up. I didn't really realize that it affected me because it wasn't happening to me, but I was bearing witness to it. It was in the air I was breathing." And then as an adult, there's a replication of it, like, I'm still like digesting it, but I'm digesting it now in vivo with my partner.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think there are two directions it can go when you grow up in your family. I mean, this is an oversimplification, but-

Rebecca Wong:

Total oversimplification.

Shane Birkel:

... oftentimes, we either model what we see or we go the opposite direction. So, if someone has a parent who's really anxious all the time and telling them the world's not a safe place and it's really dangerous out there and is constantly controlling their environment, that person might grow up and be very anxious. Without even realizing it, they sort of take on the mindset of the parent. That person might also grow up and feel the opposite, feel like, "You know, it's not a big deal. Everything's fine." Because their parent was holding that anxious energy for everyone in the family their whole life, they don't worry about anything. They sort of resisted against that.

Shane Birkel:

So, when each of us looks at ourselves and how we show up in the present moment, there's a lot to understand about, what types of things am I modeling that I'm not even conscious of? What types of things am I playing out again? And it's interesting in relationships too, I heard this, I don't know if this is Harville Hendrix or somebody. It's sort of like the idea that we find someone who's similar enough to our parents growing up that we can sort of try to reenact and replay to heal ourselves from the things that we went through, but different enough that there's more potential to actually be able to accomplish it or something.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. We're such complex beings, us humans.

Shane Birkel:

Yes. And obviously, if I'm starting to date someone, I'm not thinking about it that way. I'm not even realizing it. I'm not saying like, "Oh, I'm really attracted to this person because I'm going to heal my childhood wounds," but unconsciously, it's kind of fascinating to think how that happens.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And I think that it plays out in our relationships because we end up taking on these old patterns that we're not conscious of. And so, I think so much of the healing work, the relational healing work, is about becoming conscious of that.

Shane Birkel:

Yes. Absolutely. And moving into maturity, as you were saying. Part of that is grief work, is the grieving-

Rebecca Wong:

What we didn't get.

Shane Birkel:

... the realization that there's no one out there who's ever going to heal me. My parents can't do it. My partner can't do it. And there's no one else there to do it for me.

Rebecca Wong:

There's a one wonderful book by Dick Schwartz called You Are the One You've Been Waiting For

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. That's great.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Shane Birkel:

That's a great line.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Shane Birkel:

And so, I think it is overwhelming to realize that, but there's a lot of growth that can happen once we start to do that grieving work. There's a lot of maturing that we can move into. And it can really transform people's relationships because they go from feeling like their partner is responsible for them into taking more ownership. And part of it is expressing what you need and want and getting clear for each of us, for ourselves, on what we need and want, and also being able to listen to our partner about what they need or want with compassion and understanding and what they feel, and doing both at the same time. This is where people run into all kinds of issues, I think, understanding this in different ways.

Rebecca Wong:

The issues being, how do I keep myself from foisting me off onto you? And how do I keep me from picking up what's yours and taking responsibility for what's not mine?

Shane Birkel:

Yes. Yeah. So, how that could look in real life, you know...

Rebecca Wong:

Well, here's an example.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

I tend to be wired kind of anxiously. That's just who I am. It's how I am. We can really get into that and probably explore the fact that I'm the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, and that anxiety's probably transmitted generationally. And COVID has amplified some of my anxiety, but also has amplified it in a way that I've taken off the mask of trying to not look anxious. And I'm just okay with, "Yeah, this is who I am. This is how I show up."

Rebecca Wong:

And so, my kids and I have been having these conversations, where, "Yeah, okay, wait. That's mommy's anxiety." We're naming that that's mine. And I might let them know what I'm anxious about, but it's not something they have to pick up and carry. And we're really talking about it because that's part of the conscious-making part of it. I'm letting them know like, "I don't want you to feel like you have to fix this. This isn't yours," right?

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Whereas I think for so many of us, when we're growing up, we're oozing out those... maybe they're anxious parts. Maybe they're the sad parts. Maybe they're the angry parts. Maybe they're the walled-in parts. There's some kind of oozing of the places where I'm struggling and not really able to kind of fully be with myself. And the people around us, especially the young, porous people around us, the little kids, are picking that up and like, "Oh, I have to do something with this. When Mommy's feeling that way, I have to act this way or do something different." And so, that's where we start to learn those roles.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah, yeah. And start to learn that, "I'm responsible for other people's emotions." That would be the unhealthy message that people would take on.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. And I think, in some ways, we've all taken it on in some capacity.

Shane Birkel:

Yes.

Rebecca Wong:

Right?

Shane Birkel:

For sure.

Rebecca Wong:

And so, to tease out, how have I taken on those messages? What have I learned that I'm responsible for that's not mine?

Shane Birkel:

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. And I think the uniqueness of each of us is what makes the communication so important because I had a day where I was... let's say I had a day where I was feeling depressed and was spending the day with my family. And my wife notices it and she starts to try to fix it. And she's coming from a good place. She has good intentions. She just wants me to feel better. But she maybe tries to fix it in a way that would work for her, you know, maybe trying to cheer me up, trying to be positive, trying to talk to me about how I feel. And I'm just getting more and more annoyed and depressed because for me, who I am, what I might feel like would make me feel accepted, would not to pay attention to it, would be just to have some space, just to have some quiet for myself to work through it.

Shane Birkel:

Now, there's no right or wrong, but if I haven't expressed that to her about, "This is what would work really well for me," then she won't know. And I might continue to think like, "What's wrong with her that she continues to try to do it in this way?" And it can turn contentious, even when both people have good intentions at the outset.

Shane Birkel:

But so many of us have such a hard time. I have to feel like I'm valuing myself and feel that confidence that I deserve to take up space in the world for me to be able to move into that place of saying what I need and want. I have the right to say what I need and want, but, at the same time, I have the responsibility to be kind and respectful and warm as I do it, as I express that.

Rebecca Wong:

Can you give an example for our listeners of what that might show up like? You have the right and the responsibility.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. So, I was working with a couple yesterday. And the one partner started getting really, really angry at the other partner. And it's a step-family situation. And the other partner had given some money to his 18-year-old son. And the two of them hadn't communicated about it. And she was furious at him about the way he handled the situation.

Shane Birkel:

Now, she started saying, "I can't believe you did that. I can't believe you didn't communicate with me. You always do this. You don't care about my feelings. You're such a fill-in-the-blank." And what I said... I forget how I handled it exactly, but what I said is, "You're being too harsh. He's not going to be able to take this in." And she said, she responded to me, "Don't I have the right to feel what I'm feeling?"

Rebecca Wong:

Totally.

Shane Birkel:

And I said, "Absolutely, you do. And you don't have the right to talk to another human being in this way."

Rebecca Wong:

ere. It's the both [inaudible: 00:36:04

Shane Birkel:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. And then I said, "Tell me more about those feelings. Talk to me. Tell me more. Where do you go?" And it was beautiful. She started talking about how she feels lonely, how she feels like he doesn't care about her. And you could see him change. He was going from feeling attacked and blamed to being able to lean in and listen to how she feels lonely. And so, it's holding that, "You have every right to feel what you're feeling. You have every right to express what you're feeling. You have every right to say what you want or what you need. But you do not have the right to- "

Rebecca Wong:

To be harsh.

Shane Birkel:

"... cross someone else's boundaries by being harsh." Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And I think a lot about this harshness. Vicky joined me on the podcast a few months ago and we were talking about this there too. This harshness, it's the place where I think we get into so much trouble: when we're harsh with ourself; when people are harsh with us and we let that in, and we don't have solid boundaries about kind of being able to discern, "Oh, I don't want to let that in. That didn't feel good to me"; and when we're harsh with other people, when it comes out of us towards others. In all of those directions, it's that harshness so often that gets us into trouble.

Rebecca Wong:

And on the other side of it, I think about these three other kind of tenets of what I think of as relational life practice, which are empathy, accountability, and vulnerability. I can't be harsh and be in a place of empathy, accountability, and vulnerability. If I'm really being vulnerable, if I'm really being accountable, I can't be harsh. Those things don't go together.

Shane Birkel:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. And people bring up this question like, "What am I supposed to do? I can't control it. This is just my behavioral response."

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. Well, you're welcome to have that response. And I love what you did with that client of yours, where you took her into the vulnerability. You took her into the, "Tell me more about those feelings."

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. Absolutely. And that's why I think we talk about boundaries a lot in our work. Boundaries is simply the right to communicate what feels okay for me in the world, but it's also how essential it is for me to respect what other people feel okay about in the world.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. How do you teach about boundaries?

Shane Birkel:

Well, I think there are some different ways. I mean, the example I just gave you of how I navigated that conversation would be a good example to sort of illustrate the point of... it's sort of like the idea that as I'm maturing and growing up in the world with my partner, I have the right to express what I want and what I need. But if I'm not getting enough of what I want and I need, I don't have the right to change them. I have the right to say, "I can't be in this relationship anymore." I have the right to move on. I have the right to continue working at these things, if it's important to me. But I don't have the right to tell them how they should live or what they should do or what they need to do for me. And so, that's a solid boundary right there, is that, again, I can express what I need and want.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. I think when it comes to boundaries, it's really important to understand that I have the right to exist in the world, but I don't have the right to control anyone else or make them do what I need them to do in order for me to feel okay. And that's even true if I'm in a relationship with someone else. So, I can say what I want. I can say what I need. I can express what's going on for me. But I have to be understanding and accepting of my partner's limitations, of my partner's ability or inability to give me the things that I'm asking for.

Shane Birkel:

My choice is simply about... I could get to the point where I decide I can't be in this relationship anymore. I need to move on. I'm not getting enough of what I want. And that's fine. You can move on. I can't continue to blame my partner for not giving me what I want. That has to be a conscious choice. I have to grieve those things that I'm not getting from my partner, and live in a way that feels like this is a choice that I'm making for myself, an empowered choice that I'm making for myself.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. How do you help people navigate then when their partner can't show up for them? And I think I already have the answer to this. I think you've already answered it. When their partner can't show up for them in the way that they think is necessary in a relationship, right?

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. I think I would start by moving into compassion for them and say, "Oh my gosh, I am so sorry that you're not getting those things in your relationship. That sucks. Sounds like those are really important to you. Tell me more about why that's important to you."

Rebecca Wong:

Right. So, you're guiding them with compassion, but you're guiding them into grief.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Shane Birkel:

And ownership.

Rebecca Wong:

Of that grief? Of the...

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. I would ask them what it's like for them. They might be telling me why their partner is wrong for not giving it to them, but just by me asking them what it's like for them, they're going to be speaking from the first person at that point about their experience. And we're beginning to differentiate their experience from their partner's behaviors.

Rebecca Wong:

I love how you're doing that. And so, now, they're starting to take responsibility for their own feelings.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. Hopefully.

Rebecca Wong:

They're not taking responsibility for their partner's behavior. That's still their partner's to be accountable for. But they're taking responsibility for their feelings.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. And if it is questionably violating behavior, like they've asked their partner to do more stuff around the house, and it's like 80/20, and it's really not even, and it's really unfair, and partner still hasn't stepped up, I might say something like, "You don't have the right to control your partner. I agree, your partner's definitely not doing enough here. I'm going to work with them on that. I'm going to talk to them about that. But what are you going to do if this persists? What are you going to do? It's not working for you to complain and try to control and yell at them. Tell me something legitimate that you can do for yourself to feel better about the situation if this doesn't change." And so, that's not about controlling. That's not about having an ultimatum. That's simply about expressing their boundaries about what's actually going to happen if this doesn't change.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. And so, it doesn't necessarily need to be, "Well, if my partner doesn't change this, then I'm going to leave."

Shane Birkel:

Right. I think there are a lot of steps before we have to get to that.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. It could be something like, "Well, if my partner doesn't start making dinner, then on Monday nights, I'm just going to pop myself a bag of popcorn and eat some leftovers. And they'll fend for themself."

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. That's great. That's a great example. That's a really nice sort of natural consequence.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Shane Birkel:

And if that doesn't work, maybe do the same thing. And then the next step might be, you know, "And I'm not going to be feeling very excited to hang out with you at that point. And so, that show that we always snuggle up and watch together on the couch, I'm going to go to my own room and you can have the couch for yourself to watch the show." So, it's sort of trying to just say like, "There are things I'm going to need to do for myself, if these things don't change, in order for me to feel okay."

Rebecca Wong:

And to communicate that more explicitly, so it's not just like a retaliation or a withdrawal.

Shane Birkel:

Right. It's different.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. But it's more like, "Here's what I need. And if this doesn't happen, then I'm going to have to take care of myself in these ways."

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. Exactly.

Rebecca Wong:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Shane, before we started recording, we were talking about performance-based esteem. And I just wanted to circle back to that because I know you have some really big thoughts around that.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think this is so important because, when I was giving the example of a little kid growing up in their family, not being validated for their emotions that they were experiencing, a lot of times, what will happen is a kid will start to believe that love and affection and appreciation is given based on their performance so, "As long as I get good enough grades or as long as I just have a smiling face on for Mommy or as long as I look a certain way, then I'll get the love and approval I deserve." So, they learn that they have to perform in a certain way-

Rebecca Wong:

To be valued.

Shane Birkel:

... in order to get that value. Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Shane Birkel:

And so, I think this could play out in a lot of different ways in relationships, but if there's a couple who's trying to have a conversation, and one partner says, "You know, I had a really bad day. I'm just not feeling very good today." It would be very easy for... I see this all the time where the other partner starts going into shame and feeling like, "I must not be performing enough in the relationship because if I was doing enough, my partner wouldn't be having a bad day." And so, instead of having a healthy self-esteem and being able to value themselves and show up in their relationship with compassion and understanding that there are partner is having a bad day, they start going into shame like, "Oh, my partner's having a bad day. Oh my gosh, what did I do wrong? What? Are you saying I haven't done enough?" Or blaming the partner like, "Well, did you take your medication this morning? Have you been doing... like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And so, that's coming from an anxious place, I think, based in performance-based esteem, which is if someone's not happy that it means that someone's not performing well enough.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. Somehow, the other partner hasn't done enough to take care of them or has let them down somehow or really, the underneath piece is that other partner has learned to contort themselves to make other people happy. They've taken on the responsibility.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. That's bringing the dynamic into it. That would definitely be a dynamic between two couples that we see all the time. And one of the other forms of artificial self-esteem or whatever is other-based esteem. So, that person would be in other-based esteem, "I'm enough and I matter because I tip-toe around the other partner's emotions and make them feel okay," or something.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. And it could be like, "I learned when I was growing up that I had to manage Mom's emotions. And so, because I learned that, now that I'm in a relationship, I continue to manage my partner's emotions."

Shane Birkel:

Yeah, yeah. Definitely.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yeah.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Shane, this has been a really great conversation. And I think the thing that I'm really, really taking away from it is, and I hope our listeners are too, just how much shifting into like, "What is my responsibility to look at here in this relationship? What is my responsibility in the relationship? How can I become conscious of that piece of it? And how can I do that with a lot of compassion on board?"

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. Absolutely. And I hope the listeners feel empowered by that idea, you know?

Rebecca Wong:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Me too.

Shane Birkel:

Most of the time when people come into couple's therapy, they're going to tell the therapist all of the things that their partner's doing to ruin their relationship and make their life miserable. And I think if anyone's out there listening and they want to try this out or try to improve their relationship, absolutely, I understand you're having those thoughts. I do too. But you want to try to challenge yourself to move into compassion for yourself, "What are the feelings I'm feeling? What are the things that I feel like I'm not getting? What do I want to be different? What am I hoping for here?" And be able to express what you want in your relationship with your partner in a loving, respectful way, having the courage, because it requires a lot of vulnerability to say what I want, say what I'm hoping for, but to try to approach it from that place as a starting point and see what happens.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. Thank you so much for joining.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Shane Birkel:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And I will include in our show notes links for your TikTok channel and for your podcast where folks can find you and your website. So, if you want more of Shane, there's lots of him to be found out there.

Shane Birkel:

Great. Thank you so much. Yeah. It's been great talking to you.

Rebecca Wong:

Thank you so much, Shane.

Shane Birkel:

Thanks, Rebecca.