We Are Going To Have Discomfort

Rebecca Wong:

So, folks, we're here today with Gina Senarighi. Gina is someone that I have, oh gosh, been following professionally for a long, long time. I can't even count back how far, and I'm really excited, Gina, to have you here with me today.

Gina Senarighi:

Likewise. But before we started recording, I shared that I've been following you for quite a long time too, and watching your career grow and shift. It's so wonderful to be able to watch another professional, even if it is from a distance, just adapt and change what they're learning. I don't think we always talk about that in our field, like a practice starts as one thing, and it really does evolve with us.

Rebecca Wong:

It really does. Just like we do, right? I guess we grow; and as we mature, so do our practices. I think that's something I really appreciated about witnessing you too is that evolution and feeling into it. I feel like, oh, we're somewhere near each other. Even though not physically in space, and we haven't known each other, there's something about that where I'm like, oh, what Gina is doing right now, yeah, that makes sense to me.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yeah, same. And so many of our interests have definitely overlapped or been adjacent.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

For a long time.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. I have really appreciated so much of what you share online professionally, which, lately have been a lot of questions for folks to ask and talk to with their significant others, with their sweeties, and I find that that is such an important piece. There have been times where I've been scrolling through my phone and I come across something that you post on Instagram or something and I turn to my partner and I say, "Hey, what do you think of this question?" We just start going through some of them.

Rebecca Wong:

It's such a beautiful conversation starter, but you've really been prompting people to have more difficult conversations and have more conversations. And that's why I asked you on today, because I think that something that we all need to talk about more is, and I like to call it the awkwardness. I think awkwardness is really needed in our relationships more.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

But how do we embrace that more? How do we help more people have difficult conversations so that they can have healthier and healthier relationships?

Gina Senarighi:

Right. You're really touching on something important there. I often, when we talk about difficult conversations, that's synonymous with conflict, and that's certainly an important area to unpack. A lot of the difficult conversations come in this awkward, bumpy, clumsy area where we're a little out of practice. Just reaching out and asking a question or really being present to listening and asking follow up questions, something that simple, that's the majority of our relationship. I mean, most of our time.

Rebecca Wong:

It totally is, but I think so much. We're going through life these days so connected digitally to so many different things and so preoccupied that often what we get instead in many relationships is like mm-hmm (affirmative). There's not that attention.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yeah, and so often we settle for that response too. We're like, "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, oh, I'm fine." And that’s it. "How was your day?" "Great." "Okay." That's the end of the conversation.

Gina Senarighi:

For sure there's room for shorthand, right? We all need to not necessarily be fully present and on for our partners all the time when we're living together and navigating life, but maybe a little more present sometimes.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yeah. And it's bumpy, right? Because sometimes when I'm ready to talk to my sweetie, he's not always ready to talk to me. I have learned over the years that I wasn't always good at this, I'm going to be really honest about that. Originally, I would take some offense to that and I would think he's not interested in me, or I'd make up a whole bunch of other stories. And I'm much-

Gina Senarighi:

We had lost that loving feeling, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Totally.

Gina Senarighi:

If we're not on call all the time.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, right. Something's the matter with us, we're not going to make it. And I've noticed that when I pause more and wait, often he'll turn back to me and he'll let me know I can be with you in five minutes or I can give you my full attention when I'm done with this task that you walked in while I was in the middle of. And that makes a big difference. But it takes something to notice that, slow down a minute.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. What I love about that is that the longer I do this work, the more clear it becomes that it is the simplest things and the tiniest things, they atrophy the most easily.

Rebecca Wong:

Yes.

Gina Senarighi:

We subconsciously make meaning out of them most often, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Totally.

Gina Senarighi:

And they become this larger narrative or story that sometimes I don't even realize I'm making up because it's just like an accumulation of tiny debris that flick between me and the connection I wanted, right?

Gina Senarighi:

I've really been talking a lot with couples thinking about their connection, like micro dosing. That instead of, so often we think about it like, "I'm going to plan a vacation for us and then we'll connect. When we get to Hawaii, we'll finally relax." Often, we do it, like great vacation sex, we're having really lovely walks and talking about these great dinners. We're away from the laundry, we don't have to walk the dog. And then we come back to our regular life and we are not in Hawaii anymore. There's no beach.

Rebecca Wong:

The dog's there and all the poop, and the laundry. Yeah, it all builds up.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. And for sure, I want to endorse folks taking all the vacations they need and having the big lavish dates and celebrations, those take effort and resources, that this idea of weaving in like a micro dose of connection on a really regular frequent basis, just making eye contact and the followup question. Like you said, sitting for a minute, letting him take a breath before he responds. Right?

Rebecca Wong:

It's such a big deal.

Gina Senarighi:

It is.

Rebecca Wong:

And I think part of the reason it's a big deal is because of the chatter in our own heads. Right? That I've lost that loving feeling kind of stuff that you were talking about?

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

That's the stuff that makes it a really big deal.

Gina Senarighi:

Back in the day, I used to do the Vipassana retreats on a regular basis which is like a 10-day you-don't-talk-to-anybody meditation retreat. There are other people there but you don't talk or make eye contact. It's intentionally, like-

Rebecca Wong:

It's inward.

Gina Senarighi:

... inward focused, yeah. You know, right, nothing. It was always amazing to me just how much noise I create in here all on my own and how much story I create about everyone around me without, really literally at these retreats, with no input from them whatsoever.

Gina Senarighi:

I don't have time anymore to take 10 days away for quiet. Well, that's not true. I could probably challenge myself to do it, but I'm not choosing that anymore, and not everyone can. And so, we don't often get a chance to just see so clearly, oh, there's a lot going on just inside here that I have decided all on my own is true for both of us.

Rebecca Wong:

Right.

Gina Senarighi:

We don't get a chance to take a look at that and consciously decide, is that true? Do I want to hang on to that? What was that impacting us? Right?

Rebecca Wong:

I think if we just really notice it, what becomes right to the surface is that so much of it is like the implicit stories often of the unmet needs from our childhood. Like, I'm expecting that you're not going to see me because I wasn't seen, or whatever the story is.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Well, and going back to those atrophied or lazy conversations that we have, because there's not a lot of verbal input and often not a lot of visible exchange happening, that's such a beautiful place for me to project all of those stories, or any of them, right? Just like you're saying, oh, I'm not being seen here, or I'm not valued, or you don't care. Or there's even like this is okay. This is normal. This is how we exchange care, is without many words or touch or something.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And so, I think we're asking people, if you want to get really healthy in your relationship, part of the ask here is that you're going to have to lean into something that goes against the grain of what typically feels normal for you.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. When I start talking about this, like, can we just give you little droplets of connection throughout the day? Right? If we're going to do that, it's going to feel different if our practice has been that we navigate our day around each other without being with each other. It's going to feel a little sunny when I give you more eye contact all of a sudden.

Gina Senarighi:

What if we could look each other in the face in a while? I might feel giggly or I might feel nervous or I might notice I want to look away. That's part of the bumpy awkwardness too, is being able to try it anew.

Gina Senarighi:

I mean, anytime I've tried something brand new in my life, I'm pretty bumpy. Like I'm teaching one of my kids to ride a bike right now, it doesn't look like a natural flow just yet. One of my kids is learning to run. It does not look like a natural flow run just yet. It's bumpy, but she keeps trying it. And I think about that like we assume that the practice of connection and relationship comes without thought or without much intention; but really, it's the practice that we have to return to with some intention.

Rebecca Wong:

And that's the piece, right? There's this practice that we have to return to with intention. And when we're in a relationship with somebody new there's always a new piece to return to there, and ourselves even when I'm not in a new relationship.

Rebecca Wong:

I've been with my current partner for 15 years married. In that 15 years, we've come through so many changes, and I'm not married now to the same person that I'm married. It's the same person, but it's not the same person. We grow.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. And I see the way that the projection idea that you're bringing up plays out often a little differently in the beginning of meeting someone. It's awkward and bumpy, but I might have a little more curiosity about, like, he's not responding in the way I would expect; is this because he doesn't like me or is this because he's had a busy weekend?

Gina Senarighi:

But once we're 15 years in, we're more likely to say, "Oh, he's had a busy weekend," and that may or may not be true. It may be he's got a lot going on in his mind and actually wants to share it, but if I'm ... I noticed that the curiosity factor-

Rebecca Wong:

Diminishes over time.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, and there's also a trade-off, right? Part of that is the familiarity factor is way more present, like you have had other weekends where you didn't connect as much or where somebody was busy. And so, there is some learned pattern behavior that we simply can't have early on in a relationship when you don't have that same familiarity.

Gina Senarighi:

So, I find myself in beginning stages of relationship really working with people to build up more familiarity through transparency and naming and owning, like, what are you thinking? What's going on in there? What's this about for you?

Gina Senarighi:

For folks who've been together longer, trying to infuse more of that curiosity. Like, maybe that familiarity is true. Maybe he could surprise you. Maybe it is more awkward than you think.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As you're talking about that, I'm thinking about something that I work with a lot of my people around but also I practice in my own relationship a lot, which is cherishing. This idea behind tell me more about what's working, like what's going really well for you. I liked it when you did this or I liked it when you said that.

Rebecca Wong:

An example, the other day I probably woke up on the wrong side of the bed. My partner came to me, I don't know, a half-hour, an hour after the morning started in our home and just said, "You know, you're starting out a lot of the day with can you do this, do this, do this, like directives. I just want to let you know that." I came back to him a few hours later and I said, "I love that you told me that because it really helped me kind of reset." My coming back to him was the cherishing moment because I really want to reinforce for him. I want more of that. That worked really well.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. And what I hear in that too is it tells him you are cherished, you are important. Not just the tasks, but you and your concern or your question is what matters to me. It's so easy to get lost in the hustle of our quick conversations and the tasks that we share.

Rebecca Wong:

So much.

Gina Senarighi:

There are so many of them. I mean, I see that all the time in the couples I work with and in my own relationship, for sure.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. Well, we all live in such a busy world right now. Even ... Is this post pandemic? Are we still in it? Who knows?

Gina Senarighi:

Sort of post pandemic.

Rebecca Wong:

Right? Even now, the pace of the world is still not really conducive to what our relationships need.

Gina Senarighi:

And what I hear in that example, it's so great, that willingness to really slow down, to get curious about what you might have assumed this is our normal day. Or you could have made up a story, "He's grouchy today. He's not right." I don't know, but-

Rebecca Wong:

I'm sure there are plenty of times that I did.

Gina Senarighi:

But to slow down, get curious and then actually engage, right? Because that's the other thing. I might get curious over here, make up more stories, but to actually extend myself to ask the question and be present for the answer, again it's so simple but it's really easy not to do.

Rebecca Wong:

It's really easy not to do, yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

What I'm thinking of here in this example, one of the things that worked is that a lot of it happened in bite-sized pieces. A piece of information was shared, it was taken in, it was digested over some time, we came back to it, it was taken in, it was digested, we came back to it, right? And so, I think that's an important ingredient, is that we don't have to sit down and hash it all out and get every ... It doesn't have to be everything all the time. We can chew on things.

Rebecca Wong:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, I think about that a lot. It feels so urgent sometimes, and that urgency is often a part of a reactive piece of myself coming alive. But there's an urgency to fix it, resolve it, come to conclusion right away. That urgency drives people into greater conflict sometimes.

Gina Senarighi:

This other model, so often I find myself saying to my clients your plan is to be together forever. You've got lots of time to talk about how we do this, how it impacts you, what it means, what else we could do. I mean, that's part of sitting in the discomfort and the awkward of it. It's not fully resolved-

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

... but if we can do that, it really does mitigate and minimize a lot of the reactivity and the intensity of conflict that comes up for so many of us that really is the result of this urgency drive to fix it right now.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. I wonder if that urgency, if that drive is part of this perfectionistic culture that we live in?

Gina Senarighi:

I think so.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

And how much that teaches all of us that there's the urgency but there's also not space. There's not space for things to be messy; for us just to feel into, like, "Well, if I have space to feel into what's not working, then maybe I could figure out what I actually need." Right?

Gina Senarighi:

I think we have an illusion that we can somehow avoid discomfort. Like, if I made enough money or if I did enough drugs, or if I had a better chair, or whatever like-

Rebecca Wong:

Or if I find a better lover, or I look better, or I'm thinner, or yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yeah, like there's some pathway to, like, then I won't feel uncomfortable anymore, and that's an illusion.

Rebecca Wong:

[crosstalk: 00:19:16

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yeah, [inaudible: 00:19:19

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, I think you're really nailing it right there. I think that we don't live in a society that allows us to know how to process discomfort, how to digest it and what to make of it. Because inside of our discomfort is wisdom. It can guide us towards the next right step, which may be moving ourselves away from something that doesn't feel good, or understanding more about what boundaries we need, or learning how to speak up for ourselves. There are so many different things that can come out of discomfort; but when we avoid the discomfort, we avoid those learnings.

Gina Senarighi:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. That's really a sweet conversation. I learned so much from my kids right now because they're not socialized to the point yet where they might, I'm hoping they never will be, but they really are just so honest. They're so honest.

Gina Senarighi:

My four-year-old, the other day, met a family member. The family member was playing with him, and it was an adult. My kiddo came over to me later and said, "Momma, I don't like that person." I was like, "Hmm, what's that?" I could have said, "Oh, no, no, no. Sure you like that person. That's a family member." That would totally be one option, right? But I said, "What's going on?" So, there's a way to engage in that moment. "What's going on with that person?" And he said, "I told him to stop tickling me and he didn't listen."

Rebecca Wong:

Boundary.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, right? It was great because just that one what's going on question, I was able to talk with him about, "Okay, what do we do about boundaries?" "I'm really glad you told me, that's one great thing. You can always tell another grown up. What other options do you have?" He came up with, he wanted to say, "You're not listening to me." Right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

It was great because we had a whole fruitful conversation just from sitting with it. It did bring up for me a little resistance of like, oh, no, I want to protect my kid; but I also want to honor that this family member does not know that they're not respecting a boundary and is innocently trying to play with the kid. I could have gone into a reactive fix it, resolve it. I'm the adult, so I should have all the answers showed up, right? But being able to just sit with like, "Oh, I feel pulled in all these directions. Let me ask my kid what he wants." He came up with it on his own.

Rebecca Wong:

So beautiful.

Gina Senarighi:

You know?

Rebecca Wong:

I'm thinking about so many of the adults that I work with who have learned to bypass that, right? Now, in therapy, I'm having the conversations with them that you're having with your kiddo at four.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Because nobody was there to have those conversations when they were four. So now, they're learning how to have them with themselves. I think that's an illustration of when we bypass the discomfort, what the cost of it is.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

I mean, the podcast is called Connectfulness, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

So often in our work, because you and I both work with relationships, I think we talk about the connection between two people, and so much of that really starts with being able to connect with ourself.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

Like you've said, slow down, check in, listen. We're not often taught to do that as little kids. Most people don't get that learning.

Rebecca Wong:

My kiddos have been teaching it to me too. They're a little older than yours, but not long ago I got a little bit too harsh with my oldest who's on the verge of becoming a teenager. It was one of those I need you to do this right now, like, no, you need to listen to me and do ... It was one of those conversations. My child came up to me later and said, "I really just needed you to slow down and give me a hug, and then I could listen." Like, oh, yeah, okay. Where did I learn that I needed to push you so much? You're so right, what I needed to do is slow down and take that in and listen because you're offering me the medicine that our relationship needs.

Rebecca Wong:

There's something about our ability to take that in and bear witness to it as parents. But as humans, I'm finding that it shows up everywhere, in all of our relationships all the time.

Gina Senarighi:

That is such a great example too of one of the awkward bumpy conversations that happens too, is when there's been harm done-

Rebecca Wong:

Yes.

Gina Senarighi:

Right?

Rebecca Wong:

Totally.

Gina Senarighi:

We do harm. We do harm.

Rebecca Wong:

We do. We all do it all the time.

Gina Senarighi:

We have this idea that we could avoid that also, but we're going to do it. Getting really good at being able to do some of the cleanup and tending to it without a complete shame spiral, or shut down, or getting defensive takes so much practice.

Gina Senarighi:

I think about that example. It would be so easy for so many of us parents if the world has a lot of messaging about what a good parent is and what they should do, they should never be a little harsh or a little rushing with their kid, right? It would be so easy to shame spiral in that moment and not validate the kid's experience and then learn from it, right? But being able to connect with yourself and connect with the kid and stay grounded helps you navigate through what then can become a moment of connection with him, a moment of connection with yourself, and deepening intimacy for all of you.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. Right. And I think it's our defenses that get in the way, because we so don't want to feel badly, right?

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

And so, it could very easily, in that example, go to, "Well, you weren't listening to me," instead of actually listening to my kiddo.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

Right. Yeah, you could explain, you could ... There's all kinds of ways that you could-

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, there's so many different ways.

Gina Senarighi:

... unintentionally minimize what he brought to you, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Totally.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

You know what's coming up, what I'm thinking about is Ed Tronick's work. Are you familiar with Power of Discord, the new book? Newish book.

Gina Senarighi:

No.

Rebecca Wong:

Okay.

Gina Senarighi:

Tell me all about it.

Rebecca Wong:

I'm going to give you a tiny little bit because I geek out on it a little bit, but I'm going to let you digest it yourself. But essentially what comes out of this work, Ed Tronick and Claudia Gold, they wrote this work together, they're saying basically the right magic proportions for a healthy, attuned, secure relationship is like 30-30-30.

Rebecca Wong:

So, 30% of the time, we are well attuned to each other, I understand what you need and I'm there for you; 30% of the time there's a complete mismatch and I totally miss you, and that's just the way it is; and 30% of the time I miss you and I noticed that I missed you, and I tuned back in towards repair. I may get the repair right or not, but I made the attempt towards it, or we made the attempt towards it. And that 30-30-30 happens to be the magic number of what we need in relationship.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

How cool is that? It gives so much permission to be freakin' human.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, to me it speaks, without having read it, it speaks some to the power of that engagement. When you're talking about ... Both of the examples you gave were of times when either you or a partner or your kid circled back. You couldn't just let it lie.

Rebecca Wong:

Totally.

Gina Senarighi:

rful level, right? [crosstalk: 00:28:59

Rebecca Wong:

You [crosstalk: 00:28:59

Gina Senarighi:

... just a bit.

Rebecca Wong:

Great.

Gina Senarighi:

I am going to look at it, though, because when you described it, it really resonates for me.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. Yeah, and so that's the point. The point is that we build intimacy and trust in the moments when things don't go well, and we make the attempt towards the repair. We can't actually build more intimacy and trust when things go well.

Gina Senarighi:

my work and some of why [RLT: 00:29:36

Gina Senarighi:

I'll say something to a partner sometimes like, "Oh, wow, that was a lot of judgment showing up there, buddy." They'll hear it from me and their partner will be like, "I've said that a hundred times." They're saying it with contempt or blame. That's not to say they're doing it wrong and I'm doing it right or something, it's just that in that moment, being able to say the hard truth or to say, "Not only did I see you were a little quiet today, I saw that when your partner started talking, you kind of scowled and then you interrupted them each time this topic came up. What's it about?" Right? Being curious, open and loving about it allows us to explore it, but it can be hard-

Rebecca Wong:

It can be really hard.

Gina Senarighi:

... to say that thing because they maybe don't want to know that they've made a scowly face, or they maybe don't want to notice that, right?

Rebecca Wong:

I think one of the things that really differentiates, especially when it's from a therapist versus a partner because our partners hold so much ... we each hold so many stories about each other. But when it comes from a therapist, one of the things I think that really can shift it is when it's held and I see the wholeness of you. Like, I really see how much you're trying and what a good person you are, and there's this thing that I don't think is helping you very much in your relationship.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yeah, often it's our job to be like, "Hey, you're kind of standing in your own way there. I know this is what you want. Look, you just stepped on your own foot, sweetie."

Rebecca Wong:

I think that's what so many of us need. That compassion that you're voicing right there, the way that you're stepping on your own foot and I'm going to point it out for you, you turn to look at yourself, I think that's 85% of the work in relationships.

Gina Senarighi:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that stat.

Rebecca Wong:

I made it up on the go, so glad it resonates.

Gina Senarighi:

I also am just thinking about globally there's so much reckoning and we're looking more consciously at accountability in larger community settings. I often think about how many lost opportunities there are to step into ... I mean, there's a whole lot of ... This is super simplifying giant topics, but I think about how much lost opportunity for connection and repair there is in communities when there's been harm done.

Gina Senarighi:

Our culture doesn't step into, like, "Oh, this was harmful. Let's look at the harm that was done," without even getting into fault or blame or what the outcome needs to be, but can we just honor the harm and the impact that's here? But so quickly we go into that finger pointing, blaming, solving, resolving because it's really difficult to honor the extreme, sometimes, harm that has been done in our culture or in our communities. I wish that we collectively could hold that a little bit more carefully and give it some presence.

Rebecca Wong:

I hope that's an edge that we're all growing in. It's a dream of mine. But I think that, whether we're talking about it in our most intimate, like in our home relationships, or we're talking about it in the larger community like the one we live in or the globe, the wholeness of it, Terry Real talks about a trifecta around apologies which is empathy, accountability and vulnerability; that we need all three of those. That an apology is not an apology without empathy, accountability and vulnerability. So, I need to be able to see-

Gina Senarighi:

I like that recipe.

Rebecca Wong:

Right? It's a good one. I think that that is often so much of what's missing. I think of the places where I hold unmet needs from my own childhood and I think, God, it was one of those three things that was missing. That's still what I'm looking for in that image I have of my caregiver. Or it's the thing that when I get really mad at my partner, or in my community when the local school district doesn't communicate with me well. In all of those places, that's the thing, is I want one of those three things, and it's missing. I really need all of them but usually there's something in there missing.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Wow, that's powerful. That's the therapy that I'm going to take for my own medicine and unpack a little bit more. It's so right on in thinking about ...

Gina Senarighi:

I work with a lot of folks who are sort of therapy resistant. That's been one of the things that's happened since formally leaving therapy to be a coach. There are a lot of folks who will say, "I'd never want to go to therapy, but I will come see you."

Rebecca Wong:

I hear that too. And I'm a therapist.

Gina Senarighi:

And how often ... I get this little bit of resistance sometimes when I'm like, well, tell me about, in your family of origin, what was your experience of connection, or what was your experience of making mistakes, or what was your experience of accountability?

Gina Senarighi:

There's often a little like, "this feels too much, you're getting close to the therapy stuff I was trying to avoid." But there's so much power in starting to understand how those early life experiences, I think ... Like in the book, they create a default setting through which I start to interpret the rest of the world consciously and subconsciously.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. Yeah, very much so. I think the middle one that you pointed out there, what did you learn about making mistakes, that blows people's minds when I start talking about it with them.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

How did people respond when you messed up? Were you allowed to be imperfect? What if you made a mess?

Gina Senarighi:

Now I'm thinking about several of my clients.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, right? I can think about every one of my clients because that seems to encapsulate so much of where we hold and get stuck relationally. Because often, I think one of the invisible harms in our lives that many of us carry into adult relationships is that there wasn't room for me not to be perfect in whatever way. Maybe it was I needed to be perfect in this way or that way. There was something that I needed to present that I really had my wish together.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, I think where I went was thinking about several of the folks, and this is some overlap with what you're talking about, who today do a lot of controlling and a lot of careful structured planning and organizing to minimize the possibility of mistake making now, because mistake making seems so dangerous or so harmful and so scary.

Gina Senarighi:

One of the things I loved when I did my Daring Way training with Brene [Brown] all those years ago, she had all of us perfectionist therapists in the room had to take out our baggage-

Rebecca Wong:

So, like everybody?

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. She made everyone do it. We had to take out our binders that we're all carefully organized with perfectly copied sheets. I was one of many who I was going to go home and photocopy this to give out because we still use paper back then, and she said, "Why don't you take one of the markers from the middle of the table, and I want you to scribble on this sheet, and then we're going to flip through another sheet and we're going to scribble on that one, and then we're going to draw a face on this." We went through five different sheets and just made a mess in our workbooks right from the go. It was a perfectly imperfect intentional mistake making, almost. It seems like a practice that more of us could get into.

Gina Senarighi:

I think about watercolor painting has been a really great tool for so many clients over the years because it's not something you can perfect very easily, it's not something most of us have a lot of skill built up in or practice with. Or other art forms; dance, movement. You were talking about Somatics earlier, right? Like coming into our bodies.

Rebecca Wong:

Totally. You know what you're making me think about, long, long time ago, early in my career I trained with Sandra Leiblum around sex and relationship therapy. She would talk about shower sex and she would say, "I love shower sex because it's so awkward. You're always going to get weird noises and awkward positions, and something's not going to go right." That's what things are supposed to be. They're supposed to not be perfect. They're supposed to be awkward and messy. And that is where like the creativity and the curiosity comes in because you have to figure it out from there. That's where you start to connect.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. I thought you were going to head a different direction, but I have one of my teachers at one point talk about shower sex. For many people, it's not a common place where they can orgasm easily, and so it really forces you to center being present and full of pleasure, right? Just enjoy being naked.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

Which is similar to what we were saying earlier about coming in to this imperfect, sort of awkward, right? There's a weird wall here, there's a half thing there. What are we going to do about the curtain?

Rebecca Wong:

We're different heights.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Just being in it fully, it also creates a lot of room for play when we're in those, maybe not intentionally but obviously imperfect situations.

Rebecca Wong:

And I think, if I can come back to what you said before, that it's difficult to orgasm, so it puts the focus back on the pleasure. In so many ways, I think sex is an easy one for us to look at this. But I think in a lot of places in our life, we get so focused on a particular goal, like penetrative orgasmic sex, that we lose the focus of, oh, this feels good and I'm enjoying being in this with you. I'm learning something about us or you or me in this moment.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, I'm thinking about a date we went on not that long ago. Sometimes our dates, it can feel high pressure because we pay for a sitter, we've scheduled it in advance, we both make sure we get enough sleep and caffeine so we could stay up late enough to enjoy being out. We're spending money. I mean, it's like it could be high stakes. One thing that has worked really well for us is there's a very clear agreement that whatever it is we end up doing on these date nights, we're going to make the most of it.

Gina Senarighi:

We went out this summer to try a new restaurant and there was live music and it was the worst performance. We likened it to Best in Show, the couple who sings about their dogs, that little, I don't know. Anyway-

Rebecca Wong:

I'm going to find it now

Gina Senarighi:

been disappointed [crosstalk: 00:42:37

Rebecca Wong:

Digging your heels in to like, this is awful.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, I'm disappointed because we're spending money, I wanted this to be special and then I'm getting closed off, right? Versus, like, we had this choice. Do we stay here and just make the most of it or do we go do something else make the most of that? We stayed and we laughed. It was fun and memorable in this way. But because it was a conscious choice to stay and make the most of it, I think often there's a similarity with that with couples who don't have much sex or haven't had a lot of room for sexual connection, there can be all this pressure of like, "Okay, this is the time. We do it the first Saturday of the month," or "We're going away, we have to make it really good."

Gina Senarighi:

You know, sex is also awkward or bumpy or imperfect. If it doesn't go exactly the way that we thought it would, there's some disappointment, it gets derailed and we end up in that sulky, pouty disappointed place and we don't connect. And then there's even more disappointment, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. I think that's so beautiful. I love the story of your date and the illustration of it going from it could've easily been one of those sulky, pouty, disappointed places. I've been on plenty of those dates with my partner, and I've stayed there for a week. It's not been fun. And then to make that shift into what could this be. When we make the most of it. Even something that's hilariously awful.

Gina Senarighi:

It was pretty terrible. The music was. The date was great.

Rebecca Wong:

The company was great, it sounds like. And part of that is that you both weren't in that sulky place. Because had you been there, it would have not been as great a date.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, had either of us-

Rebecca Wong:

Right.

Gina Senarighi:

... gone there, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, but certainly not for the one of you that went to the sulky place. It might have been okay for the other one, but it certainly wouldn't have been as great.

Gina Senarighi:

I've been working a lot with a couple right now where we're focusing so much on valuing connection above all else, connection with each other and connection to myself. And so, when I think about them in particular, I use this example talking with them. Things like ego or being right or being accurate, or justice, there's other things that ... I'm not saying those things aren't important. Being right, being accurate can totally have its place. Justice is important. Fairness is important.

Gina Senarighi:

Sometimes I can be so caught up in my disappointment or my reaction around that stuff that I totally forget to connect with myself and what's really important to me, and I lose the opportunity to connect with my partner because they're clearly wrong or they're, whatever.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, I've really enjoyed being able to have this conversation about what would it mean if our only goal was connection, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Right, right.

Gina Senarighi:

Not orgasm, not balancing the budget, not getting to school on time but connection.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, I think about that a lot too, and I talk about it with a lot of my couples because we can get our agendas really mixed up especially when we're in the heat of a moment. My agenda becomes needing you to see it my way, or my agenda becomes, whatever the thing is. But what if we can have this, almost like a meta moment? Like outside of being in the heat of the moment? My own therapist would say it's like when the iron is cold. Right?

Rebecca Wong:

In those kinds of moments, if we can have a conversation and agree that our agenda is connection, then when we're in the heat of those moments, if we can remember that, how might that shift things?

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yeah, it becomes ... then we're united, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, we have the same goal.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. I think I even see folks will get into conflict about how to connect. Even that could get in the way of actual connection.

Rebecca Wong:

Right. Right. There was something else that I picked up in your book that is something that I really resonated with. We haven't actually talked about your book. Let's talk about it for a minute.

Gina Senarighi:

Okay.

Rebecca Wong:

It's called Love More, Fight Less. It's a relationship workbook for couples that's filled with communication skills that every couple needs. I think that folks should pick this up, and I think it would be like ... If there's a couple that you know in your life that is moving into some transitionary moment or something, it would be a great gift. It's just such a beautiful, it's a beautiful little workbook to really help people think stuff through.

Gina Senarighi:

Thank you. So often, folks want tangible tools, like what can we actually do in this?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, well you can do the workbook.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Right? Because the tools, I don't think that there's any relationship tools that are like one size fits all. It's a lot about introspection. Like, what did I learn? Where did I learn it? How does it benefit me? How does it get in the way of this relationship?

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Right? And so, where I was going originally was to talk about ... Maybe we don't even need to go there, but it also feels part of this, is to talk about shifting from judgment to curiosity. How much of a big deal that actually is?

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yeah. And how often ... Again, I think our culture has so many ideas about right and wrong, should, enough, not enough, and it can be really difficult to actually identify, like, oh this is judgment presenting in this moment.

Gina Senarighi:

There's ways that we define health or not healthy as good or bad, good or bad bodies, good or bad grades. The more that we get into that binary of good or bad, right or wrong, when I think about it, it shows up a lot with measurements and comparisons. So often, my work with folks is even before we can move from judgment to curiosity, we have to know when judgment's present.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, we do.

Gina Senarighi:

They're all over the place.

Rebecca Wong:

And it can't be hard to notice at times, right? I think in part, it's hard to notice because it can feel good to be the one doing the judging, right? We feel better than. It's a little intoxicating.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, my way's right. I've got it.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, what's the matter with you?

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, how often ... I actually use the phrase around my house a lot because it's one that shows up in my mind when I'm in judgment, and now it's laughable because we can identify it together, my partner and I, but I will say, "This would be so much easier if we all did it my way." Why can't it be-

Rebecca Wong:

Sure it would, by the way.

Gina Senarighi:

Yes. Why can't we all just do things my way? That actually came out of there almost like a meditation, I would say, for myself when I was frustrated. That was like, there is more than one way to do this. There is more than one way to do this. But in learning to combine lives, there are a lot of moments when that was coming up for me. It comes up for a lot of people and working through it in this way of being able to just say out loud this thing is happening, there is judgment present.

Gina Senarighi:

You know, one of the ways that it showed up early on, I've heard this from a lot of clients over the years, is as new parents, often one person thinks their way to parent is the right way or the better way, whether it's bedtime, or snacks or whatever.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, I'm always right in my home.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, of course. And what was happening for me is that became a place where I could try and exhibit control.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

And then, I would resent my partner for me doing all the things. See how that's like a whole spin cycle.

Rebecca Wong:

You just had cameras up in my house for the last decade, right?

Gina Senarighi:

And so that, for me, I actually came in at a place where I was realizing I'm really overwhelming myself by taking on too much here-

Rebecca Wong:

Totally.

Gina Senarighi:

one way to do it." [inaudible: 00:52:39

Rebecca Wong:

Right. I think that's huge. I have finally learned that resentment, that anger. I welcome these feelings now in a different way than I ever have because they're not so scary anymore. But I think that's part of the work of tuning in and trying to figure me out, is that now that I'm more comfortable doing that, I can notice, oh I'm really not feeling good about something here. Okay, wait, what does that mean? What do I need right now?

Rebecca Wong:

If I'm starting to feel resentful, then I'm probably not asking for what I need somewhere.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yes. Right.

Rebecca Wong:

Or I probably said yes but I meant no.

Gina Senarighi:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Yeah, how often I will project out like, "You're not listening to me," or "No one's taking care of me," and really, that needs to come back here where-

Rebecca Wong:

Did you ask for what you need?

Gina Senarighi:

... I need to listen to me, I need to take care of me. Right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. Yeah. So much, yeah I'd say.

Gina Senarighi:

[inaudible: 00:53:45

Rebecca Wong:

Oh, there she is.

Gina Senarighi:

Sorry about that.

Rebecca Wong:

No, it's no problem. She's so much quieter than my dog, but I have a 70-pound Lab, so ...

Gina Senarighi:

Oh, my God. Yeah. No, this is the opposite end of the dog spectrum.

Rebecca Wong:

My dog is totally different, and I love him.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

So, yeah, listening to the self, that's where we were just talking about.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. When I feel like no one else is listening, odds are good, I haven't been listening myself.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

You know? Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Odds are really good. There's a lot of time in my life that that is exactly what is needed. It's like tune in and check in. Do that U-turn and figure ... So, I intend to talk about this with all my people, is learning how to turn on that observational self. I think that solves much of what goes wrong in relationships. Because when I project that stuff out on my partner, I'm just not cleaning up my mess and then they're stepping into it. And they're not going to take care of it because they don't really know how to take care of it because it's probably all my unmet needs that they have nothing to do with.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, one of the exercises that actually I think is in the book, because I do it with everyone, is to ask folks to answer, before we start any interaction, especially one that might be loaded with some tension or might need more care, is to list out: what are my hopes in this? What am I hoping for here? What are my concerns here? And then, what are my needs for support from them and also from me?

Gina Senarighi:

Maybe my needs for support are like I need to take a nap and drink some water before I have this conversation. And my hope is that you'll hear me, is different than my hope is you will admit I'm right. Or my hope is you'll at least consider my view. There are different ways that I might be able to identify that hope, but so often will come out with ... The concern is a lot of projection of I'm worried you'll cut me off and never change, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Right.

Gina Senarighi:

Or, I'm worried this will result in a big fight when all I want to do is talk about dishes or something. But the more we can get clear about some of those parts ...

Gina Senarighi:

This last weekend when I was at an intensive with a couple, they said something that so many folks say ... They were like, "There are parts of myself I feel like I can't bring to the relationship." And so, I had them write those. What are the hopes, concerns and support needs for that part?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

What's that particular part needing? Or like, you were saying, often there's parts of myself that come with me from history.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

What are those parts needing right now? What are their hopes, what are their concerns, and what are their support needs? That helps me then decide those parts of myself from the past or the part of myself that I've locked away somewhere in a tower, are they things that I need to be doing to take care of her, those pieces? It helps me then so they've got a little foundation once I decide I'm going to share them with my partner. Like, what are the things that my partner could do to help support them?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. It strikes me, as you're talking about that, that there's a bit of a differentiation process in there, right? Because you have to understand it enough to then be able to even ask for what it is that you really need.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. And in order to understand it, and this is bringing us all the way back to the very beginning of our conversation, but we have to sit with it and how it's not always comfy. I don't like that there are parts of myself I'm not bringing here, right?

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

I don't like that parts of myself are calling out for more attention.

Rebecca Wong:

And yet, if we don't sit with them. That's where they show up and they give us other problems. I think so many of the people I work with that come in for infidelity, that's what's underneath it, is there are parts of me that I didn't bring into this relationship. And so, they showed up in other places.

Gina Senarighi:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and/or there were parts I didn't bring. I didn't trust you or say to you I'm not bringing them. There's some kind of gap there that I don't want to address what's going on in there.

Rebecca Wong:

le or three people [crosstalk: 00:59:04

Gina Senarighi:

e seeming. What is [inaudible: 00:59:17

Rebecca Wong:

They are hard.

Gina Senarighi:

But they're also the exact ones we need to be having.

Rebecca Wong:

Right.

Gina Senarighi:

hat's off with us? [inaudible: 00:59:32

Rebecca Wong:

I think when things feel off ... I think about this, I use the analogy of ... I used to run a lot. I don't run as much now as I used to. But when I was running, if something felt off, like if there was chaffing happening in my shoe or something like that or my knees were bothering me, I had to tune in to that if I wanted to keep running. I couldn't just push through those things and expect that there wouldn't be some kind of cost.

Rebecca Wong:

And I think that that's true in our relationships too. There are things that chafe at us that don't feel good, that are uncomfortable; and if we push through them, there might be a cost. But if we slow down and we look at them and like, "Okay, well, what needs some adjustment here?"

Gina Senarighi:

mething seems off. [inaudible: 01:00:48

Gina Senarighi:

So, it's not like there's some magical, super skillful, enlightened couples therapy thing I do, it's simply that I would name, "Hmm, I'm not comfortable. It feels weird here, what is going on?" And he does that too. He doesn't always credit himself, but he does that too. That alone, when I think about the really hard things that we've been through, the cancer and infertility and all of that, sure that's been challenging, but it's easier to go through those things because we have the skills of naming something is weird, or off, or different, I don't like it, and sit through that together.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. And I think that's a practice. It's like a lifelong practice. It's not something that all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, well, it's not hard to do that anymore."

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a practice like, thank you, just like running where I can get really good at it and then I can stop and my knees will be sore when I start again, or I will need to be more careful about tripping when I start again. Like, I'll have to keep up the practice and return to it.

Gina Senarighi:

When we use the word practice, I think, again in our perfectionistic culture, there's this idea of, "I practiced and then I get good at it and so I graduate from that practice and I never have to do it again." Instead, it's like, just keep being awkward.

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah, yeah. I get better at being in the awkward practice.

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

Now, I think that's the goal, is that I'm practiced, so now I know how to stay in the practice when it gets awkward.

Gina Senarighi:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah.

Gina Senarighi:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rebecca Wong:

Yeah. Oh, Gina, thank you so much-

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah.

Rebecca Wong:

... for joining me.

Gina Senarighi:

I'm so glad you invited me.

Rebecca Wong:

Oh, my God, yeah. Me too. This has been such a treat. I'd love for our listeners to know where they can find you. The Swoon Podcast is coming to mind, right?

Gina Senarighi:

Yeah. My website is heygina.com. I have a little online relationship skills course that kind of mirrors some of the work in the book, really, that's developed to build a foundation. The skills that I wouldn't ... Now, after over a decade doing this work, there are so many skills that come up time and time again where I'm like, "Oh, I wish." Like you said, most of us don't get training on how to do relationships early in our life, and then we get really down on ourselves about, like, what's wrong with me that I have this funny pattern? I keep doing over and over again, and I don't like it.

Gina Senarighi:

Well, odds are good. Nobody's ever spelled out and given you an opportunity to practice the skill, and so that's what the course is. Swoonwithus.com is where folks can find that. Yeah, that's where people can find me right now.

Rebecca Wong:

Awesome. Thank you. We'll include all of that in our show notes. I am just delighted to have spent the past hour with you. Thank you.

Gina Senarighi:

Thank you.